Received: from localhost ([::1]:49340 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TduXH-0006yu-Iv; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:11:35 -0800 Received: from mail-lb0-f181.google.com ([209.85.217.181]:52234) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TduX6-0006yl-0V for jbovlaste@lojban.org; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:11:33 -0800 Received: by mail-lb0-f181.google.com with SMTP id ge1so10802185lbb.40 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:11:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=K9Dc+bRIAriNGks6BdWzE9YzNbMOqXbhyg2zojrPZZw=; b=c6JhdAyYSikQ75/0Hd+w9RxxVzkf4k7MlRi+VH0OFWg1iF9QE+rv18omNiT4Ung9ye JOR1B6JAzdXcd36DjR300QoOeGdyZE9CN0yomnCoS6ZKowVij/jDHDWRaL+FkBDd6Pop AY2kYHHMPkdWTLr2Q+Ue38Unvq8oSFTRnZmhYeGPnPrU/4n6BGU0igS68KpUogdTlc/a EJLDcMaBO8fBN+F9elOw7Zg24svLTn1WBMt7syp6fB8CgSAl6a2r00DtK+y2c0wlSZGu vske6AdpcNh5zurdExo7sEs+eK7gLDI5MBx/RRLzX2ApB1LqVok22EPrHkgIkJtBslqR l0Sw== Received: by 10.152.114.65 with SMTP id je1mr20417151lab.33.1354158676154; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:11:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.125.203 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:10:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1386646.ZUz1NGUVUn@caracal> From: Joe Anderson Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 21:10:55 -0600 Message-ID: To: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.9 X-Spam_score_int: 9 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Your example still doesn't relate to the mathematical limit. Maybe your confusion is that jimte fits this limit well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_superior_and_limit_inferior but not this limit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_(mathematics) [...] Content analysis details: (0.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jandew[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 1.0 FREEMAIL_REPLY From and body contain different freemails Subject: Re: [jbovlaste] Is mathematical terminology jargon? X-BeenThere: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: jbovlaste@lojban.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6946268849036642389==" Errors-To: jbovlaste-bounces@lojban.org --===============6946268849036642389== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04083865dc9aa404cf99a295 --f46d04083865dc9aa404cf99a295 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your example still doesn't relate to the mathematical limit. Maybe your confusion is that jimte fits this limit well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_superior_and_limit_inferior but not this limit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_(mathematics) The first example illustrations should give it away pretty quickly why. One is is about approaching but never reaching, which makes sense for a "limit/bound" word like jimte, and the other is about approaching but sometimes while crossing repeatedly, which may fit as a "limit" but not as every other gloss word for jimte -- it's not an extreme, because the min and max fit that better, and it's not a bound or border or confinement, because supremum/infinum or upper/lower bound or topological boundaries all make more sense there. This is not a matter of a liberal use of {jimte}, but of a sad naming of the original mathematical term. "limit" fits the mathematical definition very minimally to begin with. It is the result "at a limit," but it is not "limiting" at all. -Joe Anderson On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > Perhaps it's because I take "jimte" more liberally than the two of you > seem to. For example, I consider the following to be a valid > (non-mathematical) use: > > la bastyn jimte lo nu mi cadzu ca lo prulamdei se ka'a da'i .ai la mein -= - > Boston was as far as I got in my walk to Maine yesterday (i..e the limit = to > an event). I think korbi is more useful for a boundary of topological spa= ce. > > --gejyspa > > > On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Ian Johnson wrot= e: > >> That use of {jimte} is outright wrong, in that it is entirely >> inconsistent for something like x_n =3D (-1)^n/n where 0 is not a bound = in >> any sense and yet is the limit of the sequence. This is also jargon, and >> should be treated as such. {jimte} when used in mathematics should be fo= r >> things like "boundary of a topological space" >> >> mu'o mi'e la latro'a >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Michael Turniansky > > wrote: >> >>> Yes, it's jargon, IMHO. >>> >>> As for limit in the mathematical sense: >>> >>> fancyjimte: j1 is the limit of function f1=3Dj2 from domain f2=3Dj3= to >>> range f3 (add fa'a piece if you want to specify direction of the limit) >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote= : >>> >>>> I'm thinking of adding the word "kadlago" (x1 is a c=C3=A0dl=C3=A0g fu= nction from >>>> domain >>>> x2 to range x3, where the domain and range have topologies such that i= t >>>> makes >>>> sense). "c=C3=A0dl=C3=A0g" is a French acronym which looks strange eve= n in >>>> French, but >>>> has been adopted into various languages. Should I mark it as jargon? >>>> >>>> Also, what's the word for "limit" in the mathematical sense? >>>> >>>> Pierre >>>> -- >>>> I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> jbovlaste mailing list >>>> jbovlaste@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> jbovlaste mailing list >>> jbovlaste@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> jbovlaste mailing list >> jbovlaste@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > jbovlaste mailing list > jbovlaste@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste > > --f46d04083865dc9aa404cf99a295 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your example still doesn't relate to the mathematical limit.

Maybe your confusion is that jimte fits this limit well= :

The first example illustrations should gi= ve it away pretty quickly why. One is is about approaching but never reachi= ng, which makes sense for a "limit/bound" word like jimte, and th= e other is about approaching but sometimes while crossing repeatedly, which= may fit as a "limit" but not as every other gloss word for jimte= -- it's not an extreme, because the min and max fit that better, and i= t's not a bound or border or confinement, because supremum/infinum or u= pper/lower bound or topological boundaries all make more sense there.

This is not a matter of a liberal use of {jimte}, but o= f a sad naming of the original mathematical term. "limit" fits th= e mathematical definition very minimally to begin with. It is the result &q= uot;at a limit," but it is not "limiting" at all.

=C2=A0-Joe Anderson


On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Michael= Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 Perhaps it's because I take "jimte" m= ore liberally than the two of you seem to. =C2=A0For example, I consider th= e following to be a valid (non-mathematical) use:

la bas= tyn jimte lo nu mi cadzu ca lo prulamdei se ka'a da'i .ai la mein -= - Boston was as far as I got in my walk to Maine yesterday (i..e the limit = to an event). I think korbi is more useful for a boundary of topological sp= ace.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= --gejyspa


On Mon, = Nov 26, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:
That use of {jimte} is outright wrong, in th= at it is entirely inconsistent for something like x_n =3D (-1)^n/n where 0 = is not a bound in any sense and yet is the limit of the sequence. This is a= lso jargon, and should be treated as such. {jimte} when used in mathematics= should be for things like "boundary of a topological space"

mu'o mi'e la latro'a


On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Michael Turniansky = <mturniansky@= gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 Yes, it's jargon= , IMHO.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 As for limit in the mathematical se= nse:

=C2=A0 fancyjimte: j1 is the limit of =C2=A0function f1=3Dj2 =C2= =A0from domain f2=3Dj3 to range f3 (add fa'a piece if you want to speci= fy direction of the limit)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


=
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Pier= re Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
I'm thinking of adding the word "ka= dlago" (x1 is a c=C3=A0dl=C3=A0g function from domain
x2 to range x3, where the domain and range have topologies such that it mak= es
sense). "c=C3=A0dl=C3=A0g" is a French acronym which looks strang= e even in French, but
has been adopted into various languages. Should I mark it as jargon?

Also, what's the word for "limit" in the mathematical sense?<= br>
Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wal= es.


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