Received: from localhost ([::1]:51583 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Te5Sc-0004pq-TC; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 06:51:31 -0800 Received: from mail-oa0-f53.google.com ([209.85.219.53]:56615) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Te5SO-0004pj-H6 for jbovlaste@lojban.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 06:51:25 -0800 Received: by mail-oa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id j6so14571992oag.40 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 06:51:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=9/zbL7LB7hqtN2mz+djSDeyEFS2kQMhLb/WHbmVWPXM=; b=VXBWutEr8Qzc/nV8rFjM2EJhcqNJ5Xdu3MCZJMWyFc+gXr4YQyQoi2KcfE009XCRz7 m4VfD7CioeoKdCWlhNAF5TWacfSupvMM6G44VdBIE+iLWHMdsVgiKSr/lLVnHk7Asw8V VcnKsnXVTjpHQ4F4PZj3YPcn/gQX3uIuMOHNyQt9b1LWEbBzUwQjFzp66OATYz7t0EMM kYdSwIBzRCIgtPvu5LLaOpBauwGSPF/2hE5z1uEv4dW9pcsa9dLV0ueIwEoe+1JGlAx8 +AmlmeoxBYvAnvxdadw/+o0E0MhSeYFdXVhBT7dn+dLgt4iA90HhjIHyp2WnuNoJB0Au IY9A== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.26.234 with SMTP id o10mr1826302oeg.116.1354200669569; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 06:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.182.186.74 with HTTP; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 06:51:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1386646.ZUz1NGUVUn@caracal> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 09:51:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: Michael Turniansky To: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Subject: Re: [jbovlaste] Is mathematical terminology jargon? X-BeenThere: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: jbovlaste@lojban.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1912488645074244620==" Errors-To: jbovlaste-bounces@lojban.org --===============1912488645074244620== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f83a4d9dd417604cfa369ce --e89a8f83a4d9dd417604cfa369ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, I never heard of the "limit superior" and "limit inferior" before. I had only heard of the other, and I understand that it may cross it several times. But that doesn't change the fact that it gets progressively closer to it, and it ultimately serves as a extreme in that sense. OTOH, I proposed a lujvo, and a jargon one at that, so it can have any meaning attached to it we want. --gejyspa On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 10:10 PM, Joe Anderson wrote: > Your example still doesn't relate to the mathematical limit. > > Maybe your confusion is that jimte fits this limit well: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_superior_and_limit_inferior > but not this limit: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_(mathematics) > > The first example illustrations should give it away pretty quickly why. > One is is about approaching but never reaching, which makes sense for a > "limit/bound" word like jimte, and the other is about approaching but > sometimes while crossing repeatedly, which may fit as a "limit" but not a= s > every other gloss word for jimte -- it's not an extreme, because the min > and max fit that better, and it's not a bound or border or confinement, > because supremum/infinum or upper/lower bound or topological boundaries a= ll > make more sense there. > > This is not a matter of a liberal use of {jimte}, but of a sad naming of > the original mathematical term. "limit" fits the mathematical definition > very minimally to begin with. It is the result "at a limit," but it is no= t > "limiting" at all. > > -Joe Anderson > > > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > >> Perhaps it's because I take "jimte" more liberally than the two of you >> seem to. For example, I consider the following to be a valid >> (non-mathematical) use: >> >> la bastyn jimte lo nu mi cadzu ca lo prulamdei se ka'a da'i .ai la mein >> -- Boston was as far as I got in my walk to Maine yesterday (i..e the li= mit >> to an event). I think korbi is more useful for a boundary of topological >> space. >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Ian Johnson wro= te: >> >>> That use of {jimte} is outright wrong, in that it is entirely >>> inconsistent for something like x_n =3D (-1)^n/n where 0 is not a bound= in >>> any sense and yet is the limit of the sequence. This is also jargon, an= d >>> should be treated as such. {jimte} when used in mathematics should be f= or >>> things like "boundary of a topological space" >>> >>> mu'o mi'e la latro'a >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Michael Turniansky < >>> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, it's jargon, IMHO. >>>> >>>> As for limit in the mathematical sense: >>>> >>>> fancyjimte: j1 is the limit of function f1=3Dj2 from domain f2=3Dj= 3 to >>>> range f3 (add fa'a piece if you want to specify direction of the limit= ) >>>> --gejyspa >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Pierre Abbat wrot= e: >>>> >>>>> I'm thinking of adding the word "kadlago" (x1 is a c=C3=A0dl=C3=A0g f= unction >>>>> from domain >>>>> x2 to range x3, where the domain and range have topologies such that >>>>> it makes >>>>> sense). "c=C3=A0dl=C3=A0g" is a French acronym which looks strange ev= en in >>>>> French, but >>>>> has been adopted into various languages. Should I mark it as jargon? >>>>> >>>>> Also, what's the word for "limit" in the mathematical sense? >>>>> >>>>> Pierre >>>>> -- >>>>> I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales= . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> jbovlaste mailing list >>>>> jbovlaste@lojban.org >>>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> jbovlaste mailing list >>>> jbovlaste@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> jbovlaste mailing list >>> jbovlaste@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> jbovlaste mailing list >> jbovlaste@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > jbovlaste mailing list > jbovlaste@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste > > --e89a8f83a4d9dd417604cfa369ce Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Actually, I never heard of the "limit superior= " and "limit inferior" before. =C2=A0I had only heard of the= other, and I understand that it may cross it several times. =C2=A0But that= doesn't change the fact that it gets progressively closer to it, and i= t ultimately serves as a extreme in that sense. OTOH, I proposed a lujvo, a= nd a jargon one at that, so it can have any meaning attached to it we want.=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejysp= a

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 10:10 PM, Joe = Anderson <jandew@gmail.com> wrote:
Your example still doesn't relate to the= mathematical limit.

Maybe your confusion is that jimte fits this limit well= :
but not this limit:

The first example illus= trations should give it away pretty quickly why. One is is about approachin= g but never reaching, which makes sense for a "limit/bound" word = like jimte, and the other is about approaching but sometimes while crossing= repeatedly, which may fit as a "limit" but not as every other gl= oss word for jimte -- it's not an extreme, because the min and max fit = that better, and it's not a bound or border or confinement, because sup= remum/infinum or upper/lower bound or topological boundaries all make more = sense there.

This is not a matter of a liberal use of {jimte}, but o= f a sad naming of the original mathematical term. "limit" fits th= e mathematical definition very minimally to begin with. It is the result &q= uot;at a limit," but it is not "limiting" at all.

=C2=A0-Joe Anderson



On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Michael= Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 Perhaps it's because I take "jimte" m= ore liberally than the two of you seem to. =C2=A0For example, I consider th= e following to be a valid (non-mathematical) use:

la bas= tyn jimte lo nu mi cadzu ca lo prulamdei se ka'a da'i .ai la mein -= - Boston was as far as I got in my walk to Maine yesterday (i..e the limit = to an event). I think korbi is more useful for a boundary of topological sp= ace.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= --gejyspa


On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 = at 4:07 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:=
That use of {jimte} is outright wrong, in th= at it is entirely inconsistent for something like x_n =3D (-1)^n/n where 0 = is not a bound in any sense and yet is the limit of the sequence. This is a= lso jargon, and should be treated as such. {jimte} when used in mathematics= should be for things like "boundary of a topological space"

mu'o mi'e la latro'a


On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Michael Turniansky = <mturniansky@= gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 Yes, it's jargon= , IMHO.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 As for limit in the mathematical se= nse:

=C2=A0 fancyjimte: j1 is the limit of =C2=A0function f1=3Dj2 =C2= =A0from domain f2=3Dj3 to range f3 (add fa'a piece if you want to speci= fy direction of the limit)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


=
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Pier= re Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
I'm thinking of adding the word "ka= dlago" (x1 is a c=C3=A0dl=C3=A0g function from domain
x2 to range x3, where the domain and range have topologies such that it mak= es
sense). "c=C3=A0dl=C3=A0g" is a French acronym which looks strang= e even in French, but
has been adopted into various languages. Should I mark it as jargon?

Also, what's the word for "limit" in the mathematical sense?<= br>
Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wal= es.


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