Received: from localhost ([::1]:55491 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TsrNS-00051t-HQ; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 00:51:14 -0800 Received: from mail-ea0-f179.google.com ([209.85.215.179]:43882) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1TsrNF-00051n-Tl for jbovlaste@lojban.org; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 00:51:12 -0800 Received: by mail-ea0-f179.google.com with SMTP id i12so537549eaa.38 for ; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 00:50:54 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :x-gm-message-state; bh=CmvaGpGCMviHINgsioKVv1B0GVsrjv1+WfUZ+9sk3zc=; b=HJMcWC4G/LLJ/LLAB5XsMNc8q5QkqC0l8/URyRv3LbG7aDTzrytGNbqcykFYqKYxGs BaSLnaKEsS3awLAtxwE7nUq0+JH7or5YyeJJR8EZwX0RXJV8yQFB4C7N79/whQLBQenM 96RrglS8QeH+/QWvtvXfMGauKECv50bNPvo3UjfUyvRMeUZtmPQ1gxW8yxJZ3cnRlJHC vBD5WsORxfzf4kvHrdcvJu7w6ll5JNv4i0qu1coRAZxzi0518JMooCM68d7rR6di1YRZ Yj1v/Els8mJnrnJOeVkds2jFlvJmafsYXIWkwxkS4/3hXF6kX1Q6Kqslw0sZmKWYZBrN b7yA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.202.3 with SMTP id c3mr180396155eeo.4.1357721454707; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 00:50:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.143.2 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 00:50:54 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [66.54.139.26] In-Reply-To: References: <11508866.8VCYHEEGkh@caracal> <2102027.uLnfKfkkaA@caracal> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 16:50:54 +0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: rcKo1GVvFoD3YBKJ4WxPeRu1GoE Message-ID: From: Robert Prije To: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnR0BuNP4XXT3eEpOk9uEvH2frRgLRn2Yo4595482FpjScTXxyfqSqudF9m/mPpJR1nYhgN X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Subject: Re: [jbovlaste] diabetes X-BeenThere: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: jbovlaste@lojban.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8800297898237315385==" Errors-To: jbovlaste-bounces@lojban.org --===============8800297898237315385== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3436ac0304af04d2d7293c --047d7b3436ac0304af04d2d7293c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Why do you hate fu'ivla? And why do you say that the ability to define something in Lojban mandates us to do so? Diabetes is a domain specific term. Personally, I find it strange to come up with lojban-specific names for things in specialised domains such as regional cuisine, cultural references and scientific terms. Medical terms are one of those things for which we're lucky to have had a scientific crowd contributing a huge, mostly unambiguous, clearly defined, and undisputed vocabulary with relatively descriptive names from its language of choice. They've done a pretty good job with it already. There's already basically a consensus and we'd be the only ones upsetting it. I don't see what we'd win out of reinventing that wheel. The clear drawback is that we create more work for ourselves defining a comprehensive vocabulary, and learners get hit with more work having to learn a new, unfamiliar word. Best case they just ignore the word and use a familiar cmene anyway and your effort is lost. Worst case is the whole community learns the new word and the cost is paid once for every learner. I feel the cost of inventing a brand new word needs to be weighed against the benefit. I can see the benefit for ideas which have many very different words in many different languages, but science, medicine, and cultural terms just don't seem worth it. I don't want to be a killjoy. I can see the sense in doing it just for fun. But I don't like the idea of foisting redundant vocabulary upon the whole community. On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Robert Prije wrote: > >> Sorry, newbie jbovlaste member interjection here. Wouldn't a fu'ivla be >> better placed for this sort of thing? Diabetes is a pretty well-known >> cross-cultural word. Why not use a fu'ivla which would sound familiar to >> everyone everywhere? >> > > Personally I just hate fu'ivla in general. I avoid using or making them > like the plague. I guess I'm kind of like the French in that regard- they > hate using English words for things and make their own instead (at least, > the official language people do- I can't speak for the actual French > themselves). > > I honestly think we can describe anything using purely Lojban vocabulary, > and further, I think we /should/. > > >> Or just leave it as a cmene? la .dai,abitis. seems pretty usable to me. >> Unless for some reason we want a selbri place structure for this thing? >> >> Of course, as I said, I'm a newbie, so I'm missing a ton of context on >> how this group thinks about these sorts of things. Apologies. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:14 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: >> >>> On Monday, January 07, 2013 22:01:21 Jonathan Jones wrote: >>> > I only know of two types of diabetes: the broken pancreas type (Type >>> I), >>> > and the not responding properly type (Type II). >>> >>> There's a third type, gestational diabetes. >>> >>> On Tuesday, January 08, 2013 07:10:16 Mark E. Shoulson wrote: >>> > Actually, I was thinking of going with the etymology, though maybe not >>> > all of it. Something like {titpincyterbi'a} or maybe better without >>> the >>> > -ter-. This is diabetes mellitus and not diabetes insipidus. >>> >>> Sounds good. For a name, I'd say "titpinc". >>> >>> Pierre >>> -- >>> .i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do >>> .ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga >>> .icu'u la ma'atman. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> jbovlaste mailing list >>> jbovlaste@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> jbovlaste mailing list >> jbovlaste@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste >> >> > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > _______________________________________________ > jbovlaste mailing list > jbovlaste@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste > > --047d7b3436ac0304af04d2d7293c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why do you hate fu'ivla? And why do you say that = the ability to define something in Lojban mandates us to do so?
<= br>
Diabetes is a domain specific term. Personally, I find it str= ange to come up with lojban-specific names for things in specialised domain= s such as regional cuisine, cultural references and scientific terms. Medic= al terms are one of those things for which we're lucky to have had a sc= ientific crowd contributing a huge, mostly unambiguous, clearly defined, an= d undisputed vocabulary with relatively descriptive names from its language= of choice. They've done a pretty good job with it already. There's= already basically a consensus and we'd be the only ones upsetting it. = I don't see what we'd win out of reinventing that wheel.

The clear drawback is that we create more work for ours= elves defining a comprehensive vocabulary, and learners get hit with more w= ork having to learn a new, unfamiliar word. Best case they just ignore the = word and use a familiar cmene anyway and your effort is lost. Worst case is= the whole community learns the new word and the cost is paid once for ever= y learner. I feel the cost of inventing a brand new word needs to be weighe= d against the benefit. I can see the benefit for ideas which have many very= different words in many different languages, but science, medicine, and cu= ltural terms just don't seem worth it.

I don't want to be a killjoy. I can see the sense i= n doing it just for fun. But I don't like the idea of foisting redundan= t vocabulary upon the whole community.


On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Jonathan Jon= es <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 10:29 P= M, Robert Prije <rob@bobturf.org> wrote:
Sorry, newbie jbovlaste member interjection here. Wouldn&#= 39;t a fu'ivla be better placed for this sort of thing? Diabetes is a p= retty well-known cross-cultural word. Why not use a fu'ivla which would= sound familiar to everyone everywhere?

Personally I just hate fu'ivla in general. = I avoid using or making them like the plague. I guess I'm kind of like = the French in that regard- they hate using English words for things and mak= e their own instead (at least, the official language people do- I can't= speak for the actual French themselves).

I honestly think we can describe anything using purely Lojban vocabular= y, and further, I think we /should/.
=A0
Or just leave it as a cmene? la .dai,abitis. seems pretty usable= to me. Unless for some reason we want a selbri place structure for this th= ing?

Of course, as I said, I'm a newbie, so I&= #39;m missing a ton of context on how this group thinks about these sorts o= f things. Apologies.



On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:14 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezit= opo.org> wrote:
On Monday, January 07, 2013 22:01:21 Jo= nathan Jones wrote:
> I only know of two types of diabetes: the broken pancreas type (Type I= ),
> and the not responding properly type (Type II).

There's a third type, gestational diabetes.

On Tuesday, January 08, 2013 07:10:16 Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
> Actually, I was thinking of going with the etymology, though maybe not=
> all of it. =A0Something like {titpincyterbi'a} or maybe better wit= hout the
> -ter-. =A0This is diabetes mellitus and not diabetes insipidus.

Sounds good. For a name, I'd say "titpinc".

Pierre
--
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.


_______________________________________________
jbovlaste mailing list
jbovlaste@lojban.= org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste


_______________________________________________
jbovlaste mailing list
jbovlaste@lojban.= org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste




--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'= ;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Co= me to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

_______________________________________________
jbovlaste mailing list
jbovlaste@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste


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