Received: from localhost ([::1]:57033 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Tsxxp-0000L4-BC; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 07:53:13 -0800 Received: from mail-ob0-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:53878) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Tsxxd-0000Kw-Un for jbovlaste@lojban.org; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 07:53:11 -0800 Received: by mail-ob0-f169.google.com with SMTP id v19so2367813obq.0 for ; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 07:52:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=7jAtGAs/jxvNgwex92svYt0uAO4bsVWYFRr+ajHXl0s=; b=BBRly56pPYWkhg3Oev99Sz03o/aR/QxkiHk2g5FO6woyIOvAQpd/19bi+VR0Pn1OAv lpFFMUzwwF/MeAQgMnAdDYsDEMKiYgK/W5KMOquvvyti4KhZoF26S79EREI42nITHxmJ B3K/irfi0Mbsxq80rnaUX1esVzS+t871id33B857BSpK8Oo3hiBbfm2qib5xJQkIt/CU GZxmnyRxyT109Iba9JUVCX4jveDJnyLrZYEyQh9BQ1uTU4bqgdm0s2hZK3zWpGBxBbcJ NGudhMV9ADwoDCAqUJRkk5dXd4u8YGvk5vPs/5m8Alg4FayJ1rkCMPfc71YVUp5cARlk Zfng== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.38.69 with SMTP id e5mr49223066obk.79.1357746775449; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 07:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.178.237 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 07:52:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <11508866.8VCYHEEGkh@caracal> <2102027.uLnfKfkkaA@caracal> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 08:52:55 -0700 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Jones To: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Subject: Re: [jbovlaste] diabetes X-BeenThere: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: jbovlaste@lojban.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6148067937701840480==" Errors-To: jbovlaste-bounces@lojban.org --===============6148067937701840480== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04462f0e3ee1c304d2dd0e8b --f46d04462f0e3ee1c304d2dd0e8b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 1:50 AM, Robert Prije wrote: > Why do you hate fu'ivla? And why do you say that the ability to define > something in Lojban mandates us to do so? > Partly because lo glibau na'o pilno lonu fukpi lo bangu, and partly because lo fu'ivla na'o tolmle je nadyselsku And I didn't say we /must/, I said we /should/. "Mandate" is a must. > Diabetes is a domain specific term. Personally, I find it strange to come > up with lojban-specific names for things in specialised domains such as > regional cuisine, cultural references and scientific terms. Medical terms > are one of those things for which we're lucky to have had a scientific > crowd contributing a huge, mostly unambiguous, clearly defined, and > undisputed vocabulary with relatively descriptive names from its language > of choice. They've done a pretty good job with it already. There's already > basically a consensus and we'd be the only ones upsetting it. I don't see > what we'd win out of reinventing that wheel. > > The clear drawback is that we create more work for ourselves defining a > comprehensive vocabulary, and learners get hit with more work having to > learn a new, unfamiliar word. Best case they just ignore the word and use a > familiar cmene anyway and your effort is lost. Worst case is the whole > community learns the new word and the cost is paid once for every learner. > I feel the cost of inventing a brand new word needs to be weighed against > the benefit. I can see the benefit for ideas which have many very different > words in many different languages, but science, medicine, and cultural > terms just don't seem worth it. > > I don't want to be a killjoy. I can see the sense in doing it just for > fun. But I don't like the idea of foisting redundant vocabulary upon the > whole community. > > > On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Robert Prije wrote: >> >>> Sorry, newbie jbovlaste member interjection here. Wouldn't a fu'ivla be >>> better placed for this sort of thing? Diabetes is a pretty well-known >>> cross-cultural word. Why not use a fu'ivla which would sound familiar to >>> everyone everywhere? >>> >> >> Personally I just hate fu'ivla in general. I avoid using or making them >> like the plague. I guess I'm kind of like the French in that regard- they >> hate using English words for things and make their own instead (at least, >> the official language people do- I can't speak for the actual French >> themselves). >> >> I honestly think we can describe anything using purely Lojban vocabulary, >> and further, I think we /should/. >> >> >>> Or just leave it as a cmene? la .dai,abitis. seems pretty usable to >>> me. Unless for some reason we want a selbri place structure for this thing? >>> >>> Of course, as I said, I'm a newbie, so I'm missing a ton of context on >>> how this group thinks about these sorts of things. Apologies. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:14 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: >>> >>>> On Monday, January 07, 2013 22:01:21 Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>> > I only know of two types of diabetes: the broken pancreas type (Type >>>> I), >>>> > and the not responding properly type (Type II). >>>> >>>> There's a third type, gestational diabetes. >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, January 08, 2013 07:10:16 Mark E. Shoulson wrote: >>>> > Actually, I was thinking of going with the etymology, though maybe not >>>> > all of it. Something like {titpincyterbi'a} or maybe better without >>>> the >>>> > -ter-. This is diabetes mellitus and not diabetes insipidus. >>>> >>>> Sounds good. For a name, I'd say "titpinc". >>>> >>>> Pierre >>>> -- >>>> .i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do >>>> .ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga >>>> .icu'u la ma'atman. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> jbovlaste mailing list >>>> jbovlaste@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> jbovlaste mailing list >>> jbovlaste@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> jbovlaste mailing list >> jbovlaste@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > jbovlaste mailing list > jbovlaste@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --f46d04462f0e3ee1c304d2dd0e8b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 1:50 AM, Robert Prije <rob= @bobturf.org> wrote:
Why do you hate fu'ivla? And why do you say that = the ability to define something in Lojban mandates us to do so?
=

Partly because lo glibau na'o pilno lonu fukpi lo= bangu, and partly because lo fu'ivla na'o tolmle je nadyselsku

And I didn't say we /must/, I said we /should/. "Mandate"= is a must.
=A0
Diabetes is a domain specific term. Person= ally, I find it strange to come up with lojban-specific names for things in= specialised domains such as regional cuisine, cultural references and scie= ntific terms. Medical terms are one of those things for which we're luc= ky to have had a scientific crowd contributing a huge, mostly unambiguous, = clearly defined, and undisputed vocabulary with relatively descriptive name= s from its language of choice. They've done a pretty good job with it a= lready. There's already basically a consensus and we'd be the only = ones upsetting it. I don't see what we'd win out of reinventing tha= t wheel.

The clear drawback is that we create more work for ours= elves defining a comprehensive vocabulary, and learners get hit with more w= ork having to learn a new, unfamiliar word. Best case they just ignore the = word and use a familiar cmene anyway and your effort is lost. Worst case is= the whole community learns the new word and the cost is paid once for ever= y learner. I feel the cost of inventing a brand new word needs to be weighe= d against the benefit. I can see the benefit for ideas which have many very= different words in many different languages, but science, medicine, and cu= ltural terms just don't seem worth it.

I don't want to be a killjoy. I can see the sense i= n doing it just for fun. But I don't like the idea of foisting redundan= t vocabulary upon the whole community.


On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Jonathan Jon= es <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Robert Pri= je <rob@bobturf.org> wrote:
Sorry, newbie jbovlaste member interjection here. Wouldn&#= 39;t a fu'ivla be better placed for this sort of thing? Diabetes is a p= retty well-known cross-cultural word. Why not use a fu'ivla which would= sound familiar to everyone everywhere?

Personally I just hate fu'ivla in general. = I avoid using or making them like the plague. I guess I'm kind of like = the French in that regard- they hate using English words for things and mak= e their own instead (at least, the official language people do- I can't= speak for the actual French themselves).

I honestly think we can describe anything using purely Lojban vocabular= y, and further, I think we /should/.
=A0
Or just leave it as a cmene? la .dai,abitis. seems pretty usable= to me. Unless for some reason we want a selbri place structure for this th= ing?

Of course, as I said, I'm a newbie, so I&= #39;m missing a ton of context on how this group thinks about these sorts o= f things. Apologies.



On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:14 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezit= opo.org> wrote:
On Monday, January 07, 2013 22:01:21 Jo= nathan Jones wrote:
> I only know of two types of diabetes: the broken pancreas type (Type I= ),
> and the not responding properly type (Type II).

There's a third type, gestational diabetes.

On Tuesday, January 08, 2013 07:10:16 Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
> Actually, I was thinking of going with the etymology, though maybe not=
> all of it. =A0Something like {titpincyterbi'a} or maybe better wit= hout the
> -ter-. =A0This is diabetes mellitus and not diabetes insipidus.

Sounds good. For a name, I'd say "titpinc".

Pierre
--
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.


_______________________________________________
jbovlaste mailing list
jbovlaste@lojban.= org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste


_______________________________________________
jbovlaste mailing list
jbovlaste@lojban.= org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste




-- <= br>mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be den= pa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am= your father. :D )

_______________________________________________
jbovlaste mailing list
jbovlaste@lojban.= org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste



_______________________________________________
jbovlaste mailing list
jbovlaste@lojban.= org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/jbovlaste




--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi p= atfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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