Return-path: X-Spam-Personal-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on chain.digitalkingdom.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on chain.digitalkingdom.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Envelope-to: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Delivery-date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:48:15 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MijdY-0005xc-Ls; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:48:11 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list jbovlaste); Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mijcr-0005xP-Tr for jbovlaste-real@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:47:26 -0700 Received: from mail-bw0-f227.google.com ([209.85.218.227]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mijco-0005x0-MR for jbovlaste@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:47:25 -0700 Received: by bwz27 with SMTP id 27so590685bwz.34 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:47:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=vHZf3nC3M0LDOZMMGgYsG012UfIx9gSAE2l6Y0rDtF8=; b=pnfkv5YWLx2yJ7XA79riS9XsF948uwdbAvTXN1iBCel7KlAk49YTvCjQg5n9/a0k75 CCWPY6hZYRpNC+vs/M2tFiTa33jnjAzyW6ZyxXDySUkpRD91sAkEIKTni7SQDGZOvygM EOsmmksjzXvlBKB0GPX/pum+aWuqOf5GQZouU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Uc1cuqiwtenfoxYgeSi63CkyS8NyyZnGI3e3ZHuVtXRJbPCJXYJJt4CSgKd8vVKGtV 3lkMvP+Yl1ANbS+SgAIreMzzKJOlchtwf7Qk6eiTMamOR7eEMaZ36JiR7xmb0LZcb6ON ttdwEUSWLoZQix7lZ5QeSIQOjEFGs6Ju/wRH4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.15.16 with SMTP id i16mr6463780bka.72.1251874035676; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:47:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <929481.30964.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <711327.89799.qm@web88004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20090901171911.GA17385@sdf.lonestar.org> <180785.68243.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20090901200511.GJ5073@nvg.org> <929481.30964.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 09:47:15 +0300 Message-ID: <71550650909012347x77bd6bel356a8677adb1434d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [jbovlaste] Re: Ramadan etc From: Yoav Nir To: jbovlaste@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325554016333575047292a3d2 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: jbovlaste-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: jbovlaste-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: yoav.nir@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-list: jbovlaste Content-Length: 3504 Lines: 85 --000325554016333575047292a3d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 5:34 AM, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > > > > > This veljvo could equally well refer to Holy Thursday (the end of > Christian > > Lent), and the aftermath of a number of fasts in Judaism. Given the > specificity > > of this concept, I really think it would be better served as a fu'ivla. > And > > given the importance of Arabic in Islam, it would not be a breach of > cultural > > neutrality to borrow the term from Arabic. > > > > You have a good point. However, I am conservative on Type 4 fu'ivla in > that I believe > they should only be used for words that are internationally recognized. > 'Ramadan' > is recognized virtually everywhere, whereas Eid ul Fitr is not. I'm > tempted to > suggest musysezyfantyfamnunsla - but that's just too long! > > totus > I think it's best to take a hint from Moslems themselves. What do non-Arabic-speaking Moslems call these holiday? Do American Moslems call it "Eid-ul-Fitr" or do they call it "breaking the fast day"? I believe the former, so this is what Lojban should do as well. Similarly, do American Jews call the holiday "Rosh Hashana" or "New Year's"? Do they call it "Yom Kippur" or "the day of atonement" ? I think in this case the answer is more muddled, because both are used (by different people?), so when in doubt, I agree that lojban should translate rather than use fu'ivla. --000325554016333575047292a3d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at = 5:34 AM, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> This veljvo could equally well refer to Holy Thursday (the end of Chri= stian
> Lent), and the aftermath of a number of fasts in Judaism. Given the sp= ecificity
> of this concept, I really think it would be better served as a fu'= ivla. And
> given the importance of Arabic in Islam, it would not be a breach of c= ultural
> neutrality to borrow the term from Arabic.
>

You have a good point.=A0 However, I am conservative on Type 4 fu'= ;ivla in that I believe
they should only be used for words that are internationally recognized.=A0 = 'Ramadan'
is recognized virtually everywhere, whereas Eid ul Fitr is not.=A0 I'm = tempted to
suggest musysezyfantyfamnunsla - but that's just too long!

totus

I think it's best to take a h= int from Moslems themselves. What do non-Arabic-speaking Moslems call these= holiday? =A0Do American Moslems call it "Eid-ul-Fitr" or do they= call it "breaking the fast day"? =A0I believe the former, so thi= s is what Lojban should do as well.

Similarly, do American Jews call the holiday "Rosh= Hashana" or "New Year's"? =A0Do they call it "Yom = Kippur" or "the day of atonement" ? =A0I think in this case = the answer is more muddled, because both are used (by different people?), s= o when in doubt, I agree that lojban should translate rather than use fu= 9;ivla.=A0
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