Return-path: X-Spam-Personal-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on chain.digitalkingdom.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on chain.digitalkingdom.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Envelope-to: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Delivery-date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:15:32 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MirYQ-0007Bw-Pt; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:15:26 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list jbovlaste); Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MirXy-0007Bq-Vr for jbovlaste-real@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:14:55 -0700 Received: from mail-bw0-f208.google.com ([209.85.218.208]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MirXv-0007BG-Ij for jbovlaste@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:14:54 -0700 Received: by bwz4 with SMTP id 4so835269bwz.0 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:14:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Uxpmy4xN5DsIszxsJnlpOFXnYjpFukSjSdwCM58oOAA=; b=jiWZv3tMuy6NZObqPoLikrnJYybjWIEV70PprRguScxU8OaZgGyeaQSmhyI5YR2lg1 VdtpmgLPhCyXdQrpRWYh81Y9X39AGe29f8Og+JsC/lKzix7oQzP3Mz1J7TZWliOnBSRN uPuDg8I9DNrmqve1xDnS2052yWwxQ/VM5QCXs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=x9dHp85T+wods8vQU7ywBg1nxqE1SWGr5SymiMDcoSO7Iy4CWFlFDhvlQrxkXoQmpR aH9kO5w1ThRVqzGyNSlzw8i2L+6fMuP7zSXmojrfkynz2l0tj7uxx3zMv686YzgIPtdT g2VrUzUhFLXnoEWhMCZtaf+8htSeaAAb2qYZg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.34.22 with SMTP id j22mr6827124bkd.43.1251904484531; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:14:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <192017.8650.qm@web88006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <711327.89799.qm@web88004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20090901171911.GA17385@sdf.lonestar.org> <180785.68243.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20090901200511.GJ5073@nvg.org> <929481.30964.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <71550650909012347x77bd6bel356a8677adb1434d@mail.gmail.com> <192017.8650.qm@web88006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 18:14:44 +0300 Message-ID: <71550650909020814o5a606febq491157764c839955@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [jbovlaste] Re: Ramadan etc From: Yoav Nir To: jbovlaste@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555a4c217dd4c047299baca X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: jbovlaste-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: jbovlaste-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: yoav.nir@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-list: jbovlaste Content-Length: 5713 Lines: 118 --00032555a4c217dd4c047299baca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 5:35 PM, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > > > > This veljvo could equally well refer to Holy Thursday (the end of > Christian > > Lent), and the aftermath of a number of fasts in Judaism. Given the > specificity > > of this concept, I really think it would be better served as a fu'ivla. > And > > given the importance of Arabic in Islam, it would not be a breach of > cultural > > neutrality to borrow the term from Arabic. > > > > You have a good point. However, I am conservative on Type 4 fu'ivla in >> that I believe >> they should only be used for words that are internationally recognized. >> 'Ramadan' >> is recognized virtually everywhere, whereas Eid ul Fitr is not. I'm >> tempted to >> suggest musysezyfantyfamnunsla - but that's just too long! >> >> > I think it's best to take a hint from Moslems themselves. What do > non-Arabic-speaking Moslems call these holiday? Do American Moslems call it > "Eid-ul-Fitr" or do they call it "breaking the fast day"? I believe the > former, so this is what Lojban should do as well. > > I do undersatnd there is no consensus on this. But lojban is for > everybody. 'International recognized' does not mean American Moslems. For > me it means also recognition by Japanese Buddhists, Brazilian atheists, > German agnostics etc. > > > totus > > With few exceptions, we tend to let people name their stuff themselves. So to me it's far more important what American (and Iranian and Malaysian) Moslems call their holiday, then what German Agnostics call it. If they tend to leave the name in its Arabic form, then lojban should follow suit. If they translate the meaning to their respective languages, then we should have a lujvo. This applies to all other languages as well. If Moslem Americans call it "eid al adha", it makes no sense for Christian Americans to call it "slaughter day". Similarly, Hebrew speaking Jewish Israelis call it "eid al adha" as well. OTOH, the Samaritans have a holiday with the same name, but Israeli Samaritans do translate it when they speak Hebrew. So when we talk about the Samaritan holiday, we do translate the meaning into Hebrew. --00032555a4c217dd4c047299baca Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at = 5:35 PM, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> This veljvo could equally well refer t= o Holy Thursday (the end of Christian
> Lent), and the aftermath of a= number of fasts in Judaism. Given the specificity
> of this concept, I really think it would be better served as a fu'= ivla. And
> given the importance of Arabic in Islam, it would not be = a breach of cultural
> neutrality to borrow the term from Arabic.
>

You have a good point.=A0 However, I = am conservative on Type 4 fu'ivla in that I believe
they should only= be used for words that are internationally recognized.=A0 'Ramadan'= ;
is recognized virtually everywhere, whereas Eid ul Fitr is not.=A0 I'm = tempted to
suggest musysezyfantyfamnunsla - but that's just too long= !


I think it's best to take a hint from Mosl= ems themselves. What do non-Arabic-speaking Moslems call these holiday? =A0= Do American Moslems call it "Eid-ul-Fitr" or do they call it &quo= t;breaking the fast day"? =A0I believe the former, so this is what Loj= ban should do as well.
=A0
I do undersatnd there is no consensus on this.=A0 But lojban is = for everybody.=A0 'International recognized' does not mean American= Moslems.=A0 For me it means also=A0recognition by Japanese Buddhists, Braz= ilian atheists, German agnostics etc.
=A0

totus
With few exceptions, we tend to let people name their stuff th= emselves. So to me it's far more important what American (and Iranian a= nd Malaysian) Moslems call their holiday, then what German Agnostics call i= t. If they tend to leave the name in its Arabic form, then lojban should fo= llow suit. If they translate the meaning to their respective languages, the= n we should have a lujvo.

This applies to all other languages as well. If Moslem Ameri= cans call it "eid al adha", it makes no sense for Christian Ameri= cans to call it "slaughter day". Similarly, Hebrew speaking Jewis= h Israelis call it "eid al adha" as well. OTOH, the Samaritans ha= ve a holiday with the same name, but Israeli Samaritans do translate it whe= n they speak Hebrew. So when we talk about the Samaritan holiday, we do tra= nslate the meaning into Hebrew.
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