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Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:14:55 -0400
Message-ID: <12d58c160910141214v358af3f6i7bf799962c614c53@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: [jbovlaste] Re: Esther Chapter 2
From: "komfo,amonan" <komfoamonan@gmail.com>
To: jbovlaste@lojban.org
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On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 1:26 PM, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:

> > > 3) {speme'a}
> > >
> > > m1=s1 is a concubine, with lower rank than m2 by the amount of m4
> ranks,
> > belonging to s2 under tradition s3.
> > >
> >
> >   No.  I have it me'aspe, not speme'a (as you have here)  for a
> > reason.  I think the important thing is that it's a wife, not that
> > it's a lesser thing.
> >
> >   m1=s1 is a concubine/lesser spouse of s2 under law/custom/convetion s3
> >
>
> > >
>
> But isn't this the same situation that we discussed with xorxes for words
> like
> {selteptce}, {stanycma}, and plinycma?
>
> fearsome: {selteptce} not {tceselte'a}
> from: m1 mutce lo ka t2 se terpa t1 kei m3
>
> sprout: {stanycma} not {cmastani}
> from: c1=s1 cmalu loka stani s2 kei c3
>
> asteroid {plinycma} not {cmaplini}
> from: c1 cmalu loka p1 plini p2 p3 p4 kei c3
>
> In all the above cases, _tce, _cma, etc can be expanded easily to their
> origins.  How would you expand {tceselte'a}, {cmastini}, {cmaplini} and ...
> {me'aspe}?


It should be noted here that {cmalu} & {mutce} don't operate in the same
way. Specifically, while your expansion involving {mutce} seems sound to me,
your expansion involving {cmalu} decidedly does not.

cmalu : x1 is small in property/dimension(s) x2 (ka) as compared with
standard/norm x3


A small planet is not small in the property/dimension of being a planet. I
think the underlying tanru, {cmalu plini} expands to {cmalu je plini} or
{c1=p1 cmalu c2 c3 gi'e plini p2 p3 p4}.

While this obviously yields {cmaplini} to us, I hesitate to assert that the
native Lojban speaker will make the sort of adjective/noun distinction that
we do, since the language doesn't really make the distinction, & maybe
{plinycma} & {cmaplini} will be both be used, depending on context/emphasis.

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 1:26 PM, A. PIEKARSKI <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:totus@rogers.com">totus@rogers.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-le=
ft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: =
1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">
&gt; &gt; 3) {speme&#39;a}<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; m1=3Ds1 is a concubine, with lower rank than m2 by the amount of =
m4 ranks,<br>
&gt; belonging to s2 under tradition s3.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 No.=C2=A0 I have it me&#39;aspe, not speme&#39;a (as you have h=
ere)=C2=A0 for a<br>
&gt; reason.=C2=A0 I think the important thing is that it&#39;s a wife, not=
 that<br>
&gt; it&#39;s a lesser thing.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 m1=3Ds1 is a concubine/lesser spouse of s2 under law/custom/con=
vetion s3<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>&gt; &gt;<br><br>But isn&#39;t this the same situation that we discus=
sed with xorxes for words like<br>
{selteptce}, {stanycma}, and plinycma?<br>
<br>
fearsome: {selteptce} not {tceselte&#39;a}=C2=A0=C2=A0<br>
from: m1 mutce lo ka t2 se terpa t1 kei m3<br>
=C2=A0<br>
sprout: {stanycma} not {cmastani}<br>
from: c1=3Ds1 cmalu loka stani s2 kei c3<br>
=C2=A0<br>
asteroid {plinycma} not {cmaplini}<br>
from:=C2=A0c1 cmalu loka p1 plini p2 p3 p4 kei c3<br>
=C2=A0<br>
In all the above cases, _tce, _cma, etc can be expanded easily to their<br>
origins.=C2=A0 How would you expand {tceselte&#39;a}, {cmastini}, {cmaplini=
} and ...<br>
{me&#39;aspe}?</blockquote></div><br>It should be noted here that {cmalu} &=
amp; {mutce} don&#39;t operate in the same way. Specifically, while your ex=
pansion involving {mutce} seems sound to me, your expansion involving {cmal=
u} decidedly does not. <br>
<br><pre>cmalu : x1 is small in property/dimension(s) x2 (ka) as compared w=
ith standard/norm x3</pre><br>A small planet is not small in the property/d=
imension of being a planet. I think the underlying tanru, {cmalu plini} exp=
ands to {cmalu je plini} or {c1=3Dp1 cmalu c2 c3 gi&#39;e plini p2 p3 p4}.<=
br>
<br>While this obviously yields {cmaplini} to us, I hesitate to assert that=
 the native Lojban speaker will make the sort of adjective/noun distinction=
 that we do, since the language doesn&#39;t really make the distinction, &a=
mp; maybe {plinycma} &amp; {cmaplini} will be both be used, depending on co=
ntext/emphasis.<br>
<br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e komfo,amonan<br>

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