Envelope-to: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org
Delivery-date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:20:52 -0700
DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;  s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;  h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type;  b=VooSGCj0cuMkxBpRORnWivKY7E8Czhh5Jm0hhYiBnyD7wRzOLGK1HsALq/oGcmcia6J/GqzSKptqlq6YoEn21RbSwU/ax4R+WVI7IMMpS2PHz/zVTW58SVt9tXXWwFixA/RsCjKoM+NoXaziz7Mqqv69YTl7g5XWCrR7OArNESU=;
Message-ID: <843341.83923.qm@web50404.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <587457860910170026n7c7f93adh20d7eeb05a4081cb@mail.gmail.com>  <20091017080522.GD3040@mercury.ccil.org>  <977963.86617.qm@web50412.mail.re2.yahoo.com>  <20091017213311.GE3040@mercury.ccil.org> <5715b9300910171446x4d5a5acfq2cfc7ec5edbc8099@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:19:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lindar Greenwood <lindarthebard@yahoo.com>
Subject: [jbovlaste] Re: What would happen if xu and ko were put together?
To: jbovlaste@lojban.org
In-Reply-To: <5715b9300910171446x4d5a5acfq2cfc7ec5edbc8099@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: jbovlaste-bounce@lojban.org
Errors-to: jbovlaste-bounce@lojban.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: jbovlaste@lojban.org
Content-Length: 1717
Lines: 40

>>>>> I really do mean both ".i ko klama zo'e" and ".i do klama ma" at the
>>>>> same time,
>>
>>I don't think there necessarily has to be a way to express those at the
>>>>same time, any more than there's a way to express "I'll go with you"
>>>>and "You stink" at the same time.  (Or is there?)

There isn't a -need- for it, but I see the possibility of it being used.
It seems to me that you're trying to accurately translate it to English,
then understand it, which can't be done, which is why many are saying that
it doesn't actually make sense. I see {ma} like a 'fill in the blank'
indicator, which is a unique property to Lojban. It doesn't make things
a question, it makes it (to me) and incomplete sentence with a request
for the information to be completed. {.i do klama ma} to me is more like
"You're going _____." with a little note that says "Please fill in the
blank! Thank you!" rather than literally being "Where are you going?".


>>>>> Even if there was a parse order and you had to read it as ".i do
>>>>> klama ma" first, then with 'ko', or vice-versa, I still mean both
>>>>> regardless of which one you read first, assuming you have to read it
>>>>> as one without the other, then the inverse.
>>
>>The "priority" issue, as I've tried to explain above, is not about
>>>>which statement is effectively made first, but about which speech act
>>>>is dominant.

I'm not saying that either is dominant, and I'm actually fiercely stating
the opposite. Both are equally dominant in the sentence, and should be
read at the same time because the order in which they are read is
irrelevant. It's not "Tell me where you are going." it's "Go. Where?"

Maybe I'm understanding {ma} incorrectly?