Return-path: X-Spam-Personal-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on chain.digitalkingdom.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on chain.digitalkingdom.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.2.5 Envelope-to: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Delivery-date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:23:51 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.66.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NFunS-00010T-B3; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:23:33 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list jbovlaste); Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:23:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NFun0-000104-4q for jbovlaste-real@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:23:02 -0800 Received: from mail-yw0-f187.google.com ([209.85.211.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NFumv-0000y3-AN for jbovlaste@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:23:01 -0800 Received: by ywh17 with SMTP id 17so546431ywh.2 for ; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:22:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=k7USck+bpLOqwq54L7yI6eTYvDeHENlTJb7yIv+zpZk=; b=OiVik6RSFa907DxSIG+QbY9n0gJQF8oZFLZEn9ThoMRHmmWFy2AWFq2iAggSNaaYRv r8cupZN2uuSLXQKVw7iTRkxOa3RKbGUc39HxUbFaqEgv7C1p1smZFjZApL8sqCbL4+mc hDhXKXD4dflFeBjCLZen9nMbRO2i4jPSgZ24o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=rKqvsaeXBKdT0e96lCLNpUSzSud+V1UACKSnf5QzY/MTntMtTIM0pkbZOIG8FX1XOY tylGg9aiZBnxSRn3vmsbh/+3BKm9gPM75Ab+ioA07zTLTo2YWIvmPY+Y40/MbD/CtR6A I0dYuFB3eLYd6/R7iMnZA9MWvUltjQNlAEhvY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.88.36 with SMTP id q36mr960093ybl.290.1259781770791; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:22:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <348584.67527.qm@web88004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 14:22:50 -0500 Message-ID: <5715b9300912021122p3458beb6w3fb32334b8877f6f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [jbovlaste] Re: malranxi From: Luke Bergen To: jbovlaste@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd64408f14c1b0479c3cce5 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: jbovlaste-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: jbovlaste-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-list: jbovlaste Content-Length: 6476 Lines: 187 --000e0cd64408f14c1b0479c3cce5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >I don't think we need a separate brivla for sarcasm. It's a rather >ill-defined concept anyway; trying to nail down the exact meaning of >"sarcasm" in a lujvo seems a little futile. And besides, I'm sure it'd be *loads* of fun nailing down the precise definition of sarcasm. On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Daniel Brockman wrote: > Moving discussion to lojban-list. > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 6:30 PM, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > > > > Comments, please. > > > > malranxi r1=m2 is sarcastic as used/stated by m3 > > > > from > > > > mabla: m1 is a derogative connotation/sense of m2 used by m3 > > ranxi: r1 is ironic(al)/contrary to expectation r2 in > state/property/aspect r3. > > > > gloss: > > sarcastic > > caustic sounding > > > > This assumes that r1 is an abstraction, not a person. > > Try as I may, I can't see any use for r1 or r2. > > I think {ranxi} is about, e.g., a diabetic being run over by a truck > of insulin --- not so much about saying the opposite of what you mean. > Being ironic in that sense is not very ironic in the sense relevant > to {ranxi}, in my opinion, even though saying the opposite of what you > mean is usually a little unexpected. > > For "being ironic" in the sense of "saying the literal opposite of > what you mean", I instead suggest {dutsku}: > > In English: dutsku: x1=c1 says x2=c2=d1 to x3=c3 through medium > x4=c4, but means the opposite, namely x5=d2 (text) > > In Lojban: lo du'u ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u dutsku cu du'u ko'a > cusku ko'e ko'i ko'o gi'e ku'i jinvi lo smuni be ko'e na .e ko'u noi > dukti ko'e > > dutsku1: ironic person > dutsku2: ironic utterance > dutsku3: audience of irony > dutsku4: medium of ironic utterance > dutsku5: subtext of ironic utterance > > (I'm not sure what goes in dukti3 here --- maybe {lo ka jetnu} or {lo > ka smuni} or something ---, but in any case it doesn't have to be in > the place structure of {dutsku} itself.) > > > Now, _sarcasm_ is primarily a kind of {ckasu} --- > > ckasu: x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2 about x3 (property/event) > by doing activity x4 (event) > > --- which by itself is probably sufficient in many cases. > > But to specifically indicate "mocking someone by saying the literal > opposite of what you mean", I suggest {dutsku ckasu} or {ckasu > dutsku}, depending on what place strucure you need. > > I don't think we need a separate brivla for sarcasm. It's a rather > ill-defined concept anyway; trying to nail down the exact meaning of > "sarcasm" in a lujvo seems a little futile. > > > -- > Daniel Brockman > daniel@brockman.se > > > > --000e0cd64408f14c1b0479c3cce5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I don't think we need a separate brivla for sarcasm. =A0It's a = rather
>ill-defined concept anyway; trying to nail down the exact meaning of >"sarcasm" in a lujvo seems a little futile.

And beside= s, I'm sure it'd be loads of fun nailing down the pre= cise definition of sarcasm. </dutsku ckasu> </joke>

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Daniel Brockman = <daniel@brockman= .se> wrote:

Moving discussion to lojban-list.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 6:30 PM, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> Comments, please.
>
> malranxi r1=3Dm2 is sarcastic as used/stated by m3
>
> from
>
> mabla: m1 is a derogative connotation/sense of m2 used by m3
> ranxi: r1 is ironic(al)/contrary to expectation r2 in state/property/a= spect r3.
>
> gloss:
> sarcastic
> caustic sounding
>
> This assumes that r1 is an abstraction, not a person.
> Try as I may, I can't see any use for r1 or r2.

I think {ranxi} is about, e.g., a diabetic being run over by a = truck
of insulin --- not so much about saying the opposite of what you mean.
=A0Being ironic in that sense is not very ironic in the sense relevant
to {ranxi}, in my opinion, even though saying the opposite of what you
mean is usually a little unexpected.

For "being ironic" in the sense of "saying the literal oppos= ite of
what you mean", I instead suggest {dutsku}:

=A0 =A0In English: =A0dutsku: x1=3Dc1 says x2=3Dc2=3Dd1 to x3=3Dc3 through= medium
x4=3Dc4, but means the opposite, namely x5=3Dd2 (text)

=A0 =A0In Lojban: =A0lo du'u ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko= 9;u dutsku cu du'u ko'a
cusku ko'e ko'i ko'o gi'e ku'i jinvi lo smuni be ko'= ;e na .e ko'u noi
dukti ko'e

=A0 =A0dutsku1: ironic person
=A0 =A0dutsku2: ironic utterance
=A0 =A0dutsku3: audience of irony
=A0 =A0dutsku4: medium of ironic utterance
=A0 =A0dutsku5: subtext of ironic utterance

(I'm not sure what goes in dukti3 here --- maybe {lo ka jetnu} or {lo ka smuni} or something ---, but in any case it doesn't have to be in the place structure of {dutsku} itself.)

Now, _sarcasm_ is primarily a kind of {ckasu} ---

=A0 =A0ckasu: x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2 about x3 (property/event) by doing activity x4 (event)

--- which by itself is probably sufficient in many cases.

But to specifically indicate "mocking someone by saying the literal opposite of what you mean", I suggest {dutsku ckasu} or {ckasu
dutsku}, depending on what place strucure you need.

I don't think we need a separate brivla for sarcasm. =A0It's a rath= er
ill-defined concept anyway; trying to nail down the exact meaning of
"sarcasm" in a lujvo seems a little futile.

--
Daniel Brockman
daniel@brockman.se

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