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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:11:00 -0300
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Subject: [jbovlaste] Re: Alice in Wonderland 08
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On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   I wish my son would be discharged from the army in time for Xmas
>   I wish I get "Death Raiders of the Easter Bunny 2020" for my birthday.
>   I wish there would be no more wars.
>
>   How is that "hard to use with the future"?

Blame that on my not being a native speaker of English, then. So hope
requires uncertainty (it can't be used with impossibles, nor with
certains), while "wish" is more flexible, as it allows for both
impossibles and uncertains, but it can't be used with certains.

My main point is still that "expect" does not belong with those two.

>   But I asserted that pacna does not HAVE to be positive.  That's why I
> included "dread" in there for low prob.  (Also, "fear" for higher
> probability).

Could you please give Lojban examples? What does:

   mi pacna lo nu ta na batci kei li no

mean to you? If we follow the gi'uste notes, it has to mean "I wish
that doesn't bite" (but I estimate the probability of that being the
case as zero).

How could it possibly mean that you dread that it doesn't bite? That's
more or less the opposite of hoping that it doesn't bite.

> In that respect it's much like dimna.  Unmarked, it's
> emotion-neutral, I aver.

That's not what the gi'uste says though. It clearly says it means
"hope" and "wish". There is no point in choosing the keyword "hope"
and using throwing in "wish" in the definition if there is a perfectly
good neutral word "expect" available, is there?

> And that's why "expect" DOES belong.

If "pacna" meant "expect" then "hope" and "wish" would have no
business being there, (and now we would have a duplicate as
pacna/kanpe would mean the same thing). I have never seen "pacna" used
other than to mean "hope" though, have you?

>  The
> important part of it is that makes it different from senpi/[kanpe]/birti is
> that the event is more in an Eigenstate of not having a truth value yet,
> either because it has not happened or, if I concede your POV, the observer
> doesn't know whether or not it has happened.

If the probability assigned is 0 or 1, then there is a definite truth value.

> And it refers to EVENTS, not
> FACTS.  I can doubt (senpi) that snow is white even if everyone tells me
> it's wrong.

True. I noticed that but I hoped it wouldn't be brought up. That's a
separate issue as to whether the x1 of "pacna" must have a preference
for the x2 or not.

mu'o mi'e xorxes