Return-path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on chain.digitalkingdom.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,SPF_PASS, T_DKIM_INVALID,T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Personal-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on chain.digitalkingdom.org Envelope-to: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Delivery-date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:08:25 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([192.168.123.127]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OyEkd-0006I4-2G; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:08:03 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list jbovlaste); Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OyEk1-0006Hy-Tg for jbovlaste-real@lojban.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:07:26 -0700 Received: from mail-qy0-f181.google.com ([209.85.216.181]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OyEjx-0006Hp-4J for jbovlaste@lojban.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:07:25 -0700 Received: by qyk33 with SMTP id 33so101734qyk.19 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:07:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=rSlf5Q8PqJ3zrq+i9+FqvzMXJZQXCN5itpHjpHfIC8g=; b=MQh8DgpQy3X1rCtKqLpT8RE/jOHg4N9/uKVhjLgY0uyyD7udI6UM8lpP5+iwIps3HB l47U1iduXJ8xvkAneAwktBPB9t2S3g9LaaSJC9OG3joobX0g1mSXOHOE4cDHNW+K4DDH usRxgipQ4T9awOac7/AUapNOzVYj6W7yy8SB0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=SAfoFdO9CshDtBUbditi+IxlvMhJbzvDKSLrHZ0V7QxlBBAuQI4BdV2zl3pxeTIkTS C3IoO0lJTtbY//j10z+3uy4a7SCHqGVM1YPt/6acVAM78SemlB0kkiQzvPatUmP1Mmij LZLZMTyrL4yzZoQnhSjuRUvdFpjj+EK3VOohI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.182.130 with SMTP id cc2mr2767032qcb.36.1285121234747; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.85.3 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 19:07:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7531.25333.qm@web88004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <705787.13348.qm@web88006.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <680042.9852.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 22:07:14 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: [jbovlaste] Re: Alice in Wonderland 08 From: Michael Turniansky To: jbovlaste@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163630ff71b0c0300490cf9ac8 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: jbovlaste-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: jbovlaste-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-list: jbovlaste Content-Length: 8431 Lines: 209 --00163630ff71b0c0300490cf9ac8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/9/21 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas > On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > > > > I wish my son would be discharged from the army in time for Xmas > > I wish I get "Death Raiders of the Easter Bunny 2020" for my birthday= . > > I wish there would be no more wars. > > > > How is that "hard to use with the future"? > > Blame that on my not being a native speaker of English, then. So hope > requires uncertainty (it can't be used with impossibles, nor with > certains), while "wish" is more flexible, as it allows for both > impossibles and uncertains, but it can't be used with certains. > > My main point is still that "expect" does not belong with those two. > > > But I asserted that pacna does not HAVE to be positive. That's why I > > included "dread" in there for low prob. (Also, "fear" for higher > > probability). > > Could you please give Lojban examples? What does: > > mi pacna lo nu ta na batci kei li no > > mean to you? If we follow the gi'uste notes, it has to mean "I wish > that doesn't bite" (but I estimate the probability of that being the > case as zero). > > How could it possibly mean that you dread that it doesn't bite? That's > more or less the opposite of hoping that it doesn't bite. > > That's correct. But if I were to say " .ii mi (mal)pacna lo nu ta batci kei li pi no no mu" It would mean I believe that it will bite, despite the extremely low probability thereof and hence I dread it, simply from the context. (Yes, that's right -- krici, except, again, about an event, not a fact.) > > In that respect it's much like dimna. Unmarked, it's > > emotion-neutral, I aver. > > That's not what the gi'uste says though. It clearly says it means > "hope" and "wish". There is no point in choosing the keyword "hope" > and using throwing in "wish" in the definition if there is a perfectly > good neutral word "expect" available, is there? > > > And that's why "expect" DOES belong. > > If "pacna" meant "expect" then "hope" and "wish" would have no > business being there, (and now we would have a duplicate as > pacna/kanpe would mean the same thing). I have never seen "pacna" used > other than to mean "hope" though, have you? > > > The > > important part of it is that makes it different from senpi/[kanpe]/birt= i > is > > that the event is more in an Eigenstate of not having a truth value yet= , > > either because it has not happened or, if I concede your POV, the > observer > > doesn't know whether or not it has happened. > > If the probability assigned is 0 or 1, then there is a definite truth > value. > > > And it refers to EVENTS, not > > FACTS. I can doubt (senpi) that snow is white even if everyone tells m= e > > it's wrong. > > True. I noticed that but I hoped it wouldn't be brought up. That's a > separate issue as to whether the x1 of "pacna" must have a preference > for the x2 or not. > Again, I am also not debating whether or not the x3 "belongs" here. = I was simply laying out the main meaning of "pacna" is x1 pacna x2 x3 =3D> x1 krici lo du'u x2 ca'a fasnu kei .ije x2 fasnu la'a x3 mei (or something like that), in my understanding of it, and that the use of several differen= t English is simply based on the fact that those mean parallel things differing only in the x3. --gejyspa --00163630ff71b0c0300490cf9ac8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2010/9/21 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com> = wrote:
>
> =C2=A0 I wish my son would be discharged from the army in time for Xma= s
> =C2=A0 I wish I get "Death Raiders of the Easter Bunny 2020"= for my birthday.
> =C2=A0 I wish there would be no more wars.
>
> =C2=A0 How is that "hard to use with the future"?

Blame that on my not being a native speaker of English, then. So hope=
requires uncertainty (it can't be used with impossibles, nor with
certains), while "wish" is more flexible, as it allows for both impossibles and uncertains, but it can't be used with certains.

My main point is still that "expect" does not belong with those t= wo.

> =C2=A0 But I asserted that pacna does not HAVE to be positive.=C2=A0 T= hat's why I
> included "dread" in there for low prob.=C2=A0 (Also, "f= ear" for higher
> probability).

Could you please give Lojban examples? What does:

=C2=A0 mi pacna lo nu ta na batci kei li no

mean to you? If we follow the gi'uste notes, it has to mean "I wis= h
that doesn't bite" (but I estimate the probability of that being t= he
case as zero).

How could it possibly mean that you dread that it doesn't bite? That= 9;s
more or less the opposite of hoping that it doesn't bite.


=C2=A0=C2=A0 That's c= orrect.=C2=A0 But if I were to say " .ii mi (mal)pacna lo nu ta batci = kei li pi no no mu" It would mean I believe that it will bite, despite= the extremely low probability thereof and hence I dread it, simply from th= e context.=C2=A0 (Yes, that's right -- krici, except, again, about an e= vent, not a fact.)
=C2=A0
> In that respect it's much like dimna.=C2=A0 Unmarked, it's
> emotion-neutral, I aver.

That's not what the gi'uste says though. It clearly says it m= eans
"hope" and "wish". There is no point in choosing the ke= yword "hope"
and using throwing in "wish" in the definition if there is a perf= ectly
good neutral word "expect" available, is there?

> And that's why "expect" DOES belong.

If "pacna" meant "expect" then "hope" a= nd "wish" would have no
business being there, (and now we would have a duplicate as
pacna/kanpe would mean the same thing). I have never seen "pacna"= used
other than to mean "hope" though, have you?

>=C2=A0 The
> important part of it is that makes it different from senpi/[kanpe]/bir= ti is
> that the event is more in an Eigenstate of not having a truth value ye= t,
> either because it has not happened or, if I concede your POV, the obse= rver
> doesn't know whether or not it has happened.

If the probability assigned is 0 or 1, then there is a definite truth= value.

> And it refers to EVENTS, not
> FACTS.=C2=A0 I can doubt (senpi) that snow is white even if everyone t= ells me
> it's wrong.

True. I noticed that but I hoped it wouldn't be brought up. That&= #39;s a
separate issue as to whether the x1 of "pacna" must have a prefer= ence
for the x2 or not.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Agai= n, I am also not debating whether or not the x3 "belongs" here.= =C2=A0 I was simply laying out the main meaning of "pacna" is x1 = pacna x2 x3 =3D> x1 krici lo du'u x2 ca'a fasnu kei .ije x2 fasn= u la'a x3 mei=C2=A0 (or something like that), in my understanding of it= , and that the use of several different English is simply based on the fact= that those mean parallel things differing only in the x3.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --gejyspa

=C2=A0

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