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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 13:31:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Nathaniel Krause <nathanielkrause@yahoo.com>
Subject: [jbovlaste] Re: Emperor
To: jbovlaste@lojban.org
In-Reply-To: <29264.92009.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
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I think the main question is whether you are trying to come up with a gloss=
 of an English (or other naljbo) word or whether you are describing somethi=
ng in your own words. A translation is probably a bit of both, since you no=
rmally want the wording of the xe fanva to be reminiscent of the original t=
ext, but you also want the result to understandable and accurate in the tar=
get language. In the case of the Emperor of Japan, it may be worth noting t=
hat we are not dealing with a word that is originally English anyway, and w=
hile the emperors of Austria, China, and Japan may have the same title in E=
nglish, these are two or three different words in Japanese and Chinese.

Regarding "sorgugnai", I've never been very clear on exactly what a gugde o=
r a natmi is, but the gismu glosses natmi as "nation/ethnic group" and in b=
rackets as [people sharing a history/culture], while gugde is a "country" a=
nd parenthetically (people/territory relationship). So, it seems like natmi=
 means nation in the more specific sense of a largish imagined community, a=
s opposed to the more colloquial sense of a political regime as found in th=
e name of the United Nations. An empire is arguable a type of gugde, but th=
e whole point of it is that it rules various natmi. So, perhaps an empire w=
ould be a sornai gugje'a, while a union like the EU would be a sorgu'e ject=
a?

Note also that being sornai is probably always a matter of degree, i.e. the=
re's probably a certain amount of ethnic diversity in any political territo=
ry. Even the Emperor of Japan is ruler not only of Japan proper, but also o=
f the Ryukyu Islands and Ainuistan.

mu'e mi'o sen

--- On Fri, 12/31/10, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:

From: A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com>
Subject: [jbovlaste] Re: Emperor
To: jbovlaste@lojban.org
Date: Friday, December 31, 2010, 1:58 PM


>I agree that such a distinction between "empires" and "unions" should be m=
ade.
>*Maybe* {sorgugnai} (a nation extending several countires) could fit for=
=20
>"empire".
>
>Furthermore, I think that if the ruler of japan chooses to call himself an=
=20
>Emperor, that doesnt mean that he has to be an emporer in the lojban sense=
 of=20
>the word (ruler of an empire).
>Is "King of th Hill" a king? Is "Dr. Evil" a doctor? No. But they can stil=
l=20
>choose to use those titles, devoid of their meaning. We shouldn't have to =
"bend"=20
>
>the lojban word for emperor to fit Japan.

I=A0have struggled with this.=A0 But I don't think, in general, particularl=
y if we=20
are=20

translating, that it's our role as lojbanists to decide if the 'Emperor' is=
=20
really=A0=A0
an Emperor.=A0 On the other hand, if we are writing specifically about his/=
her=20
role or=20

responsibilty, then we may chose to call the Emperor of Japan a 'king', and=
=20
Queen Victoria an 'empress.


>
>And BTW, isn't {noltrunau} and {noltruni'u} the preveiling words for king/=
queen?=20
>
>(as used in Alice in Wonderland)

{noltru} could be the governor of a province - hence the need for the rafsi=
=20
{-rai} as=20

used in jbovlaste..

Often it doesn't really matter if the monarch is male or female.=A0 As for =
Alice=20
in=20

Wonderland, I guess the level of rulership wasn't important for the transla=
tor,=20
but maybe the gender was.

totus


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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">I think the main question is whether you are =
trying to come up with a gloss of an English (or other naljbo) word or whet=
her you are describing something in your own words. A translation is probab=
ly a bit of both, since you normally want the wording of the xe fanva to be=
 reminiscent of the original text, but you also want the result to understa=
ndable and accurate in the target language. In the case of the Emperor of J=
apan, it may be worth noting that we are not dealing with a word that is or=
iginally English anyway, and while the emperors of Austria, China, and Japa=
n may have the same title in English, these are two or three different word=
s in Japanese and Chinese.<br><br>Regarding "sorgugnai", I've never been ve=
ry clear on exactly what a gugde or a natmi is, but the gismu glosses natmi=
 as "nation/ethnic group" and in brackets as [people sharing a
 history/culture], while gugde is a "country" and parenthetically<span styl=
e=3D"font-family: monospace;"> </span>(people/territory relationship). So, =
it seems like natmi means nation in the more specific sense of a largish im=
agined community, as opposed to the more colloquial sense of a political re=
gime as found in the name of the United Nations. An empire is arguable a ty=
pe of gugde, but the whole point of it is that it rules various natmi. So, =
perhaps an empire would be a sornai gugje'a, while a union like the EU woul=
d be a sorgu'e jecta?<br><br>Note also that being sornai is probably always=
 a matter of degree, i.e. there's probably a certain amount of ethnic diver=
sity in any political territory. Even the Emperor of Japan is ruler not onl=
y of Japan proper, but also of the Ryukyu Islands and Ainuistan.<br><br>mu'=
e mi'o sen<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 12/31/10, A. PIEKARSKI <i>&lt;totus@rogers=
.com&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid
 rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: A. PIEKA=
RSKI &lt;totus@rogers.com&gt;<br>Subject: [jbovlaste] Re: Emperor<br>To: jb=
ovlaste@lojban.org<br>Date: Friday, December 31, 2010, 1:58 PM<br><br><div =
class=3D"plainMail"><br>&gt;I agree that such a distinction between "empire=
s" and "unions" should be made.<br>&gt;*Maybe* {sorgugnai} (a nation extend=
ing several countires) could fit for <br>&gt;"empire".<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Furth=
ermore, I think that if the ruler of japan chooses to call himself an <br>&=
gt;Emperor, that doesnt mean that he has to be an emporer in the lojban sen=
se of <br>&gt;the word (ruler of an empire).<br>&gt;Is "King of th Hill" a =
king? Is "Dr. Evil" a doctor? No. But they can still <br>&gt;choose to use =
those titles, devoid of their meaning. We shouldn't have to "bend" <br>&gt;=
<br>&gt;the lojban word for emperor to fit Japan.<br><br>I&nbsp;have strugg=
led with this.&nbsp; But I don't think, in general, particularly if we
 <br>are <br><br>translating, that it's our role as lojbanists to decide if=
 the 'Emperor' is <br>really&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>an Emperor.&nbsp; On the other =
hand, if we are writing specifically about his/her <br>role or <br><br>resp=
onsibilty, then we may chose to call the Emperor of Japan a 'king', and <br=
>Queen Victoria an 'empress.<br><br><br>&gt;<br>&gt;And BTW, isn't {noltrun=
au} and {noltruni'u} the preveiling words for king/queen? <br>&gt;<br>&gt;(=
as used in Alice in Wonderland)<br><br>{noltru} could be the governor of a =
province - hence the need for the rafsi <br>{-rai} as <br><br>used in jbovl=
aste..<br><br>Often it doesn't really matter if the monarch is male or fema=
le.&nbsp; As for Alice <br>in <br><br>Wonderland, I guess the level of rule=
rship wasn't important for the translator, <br>but maybe the gender was.<br=
><br>totus<br><br><br><br></div></blockquote></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A=
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A      
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