Return-path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on chain.digitalkingdom.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,RFC_ABUSE_POST,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID, T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Personal-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on chain.digitalkingdom.org Envelope-to: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Delivery-date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 11:14:19 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([192.168.123.127]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PZ6si-0000Be-5N; Sat, 01 Jan 2011 11:12:49 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list jbovlaste); Sat, 01 Jan 2011 11:11:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PZ6rD-0000BY-Aj for jbovlaste-real@lojban.org; Sat, 01 Jan 2011 11:11:15 -0800 Received: from mail-gw0-f53.google.com ([74.125.83.53]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PZ6r6-0000BK-Lg for jbovlaste@lojban.org; Sat, 01 Jan 2011 11:11:14 -0800 Received: by gwb10 with SMTP id 10so3897326gwb.40 for ; Sat, 01 Jan 2011 11:11:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=HGnczjXpqnPWyLfvO7qyNyJYiaO/v7u6U1jmjSQNHnE=; b=lQH7c8h2LbW0bDW4B9o/PU7c9mW87DEmf3tlheg/0RnT7LzipLs7vJFdLpyqIPIiK8 DL8TUx3mLnER39A5jepYa6iDw4Ghw3xAvlqHJlW+SgccBb9CXZgzBMUO07cBzltKPfn+ pA4au1LXxwqA5zh+3GFJYeHuNamuu4bVtEYUg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=LYTi1YacAV1f6SrGyfVsG1JFeSrcv3dhmSSZHnsgo3yDGededgZiMo5KyMa0Y1OQ5c TL+VMcTrNI9x66R1iH7yVLiDxj2pY0SIUvmCZjePaj6lPDMGGILJXwHg3WObfc8yUP3F Kyhwac40QnAU/GmDy7/7SFzLoaspB9KcyDcRo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.120.12 with SMTP id s12mr10421771agc.21.1293909061591; Sat, 01 Jan 2011 11:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.27.16 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Jan 2011 11:11:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20101231222036.GB32215@mercury.ccil.org> References: <29264.92009.qm@web88008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <212755.25500.qm@web110404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20101231222036.GB32215@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 14:11:01 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: [jbovlaste] Re: Emperor From: Eitan Postavsky To: jbovlaste@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016361e7f08fce8010498cdadc0 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: jbovlaste-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: jbovlaste-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eitanp32@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: jbovlaste@lojban.org X-list: jbovlaste Content-Length: 6133 Lines: 138 --0016361e7f08fce8010498cdadc0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm also for making our own precisely defined (but general) terms, rather than following those of any one language. I might even go so far as to say = I don't want the taint of English in my Lojban. We can have a general word just meaning a bunch of countries considered together, and then use tanru (or lujvo if we really want) to distinguish between the different types such as the EU and the Roman Empire. Say, gu'egunma for the first one, rolmeitru gu'egunma for the second, pavmeitru gu'egunma. Dunno. I just like the idea of having a general term which is then (if needed at all) disambiguated by adding to it. If you don't like the previous paragraph, we could just go with Wikipedia's definition (not that Wikipedia thinks "empire" only means one thing): "An empire is a state with politico-military dominion of populations who ar= e culturally and ethnically distinct from the imperial (ruling) ethnic group and its culture[3] =97 unlike a federation , an extensive state voluntarily composed of autonomous states and peoples." Sounds like sornaije'a. So how do we translate "empire"? If the source text is loose enough with th= e term, it's appropriate to use {le} and {voi}. If not, our words simply won'= t match up with the source text, which is fine in my books. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 5:20 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Nathaniel Krause scripsit: > > > I think the main question is whether you are trying to come up with a > > gloss of an English (or other naljbo) word or whether you are describin= g > > something in your own words. > > Quite so, which is why the question "What is the Lojban word for X?" is > misconceived. Even the question "What is the German word for 'hard'?" > has something like 40 different answers, appropriate in different senses > and contexts of use. > > > So, it seems like natmi means nation in the more > > specific sense of a largish imagined community, > > Basically, although a natmi can be pretty small. There are only about > 800 Havasupai, for example (a natmi that lives inside the Grand Canyon > of the Colorado). The essence of nu gugde is sovereignty, though; > most natmi don't have that. > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan > You cannot enter here. Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! > Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go! --Gandalf > > > > --0016361e7f08fce8010498cdadc0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm also for making our own precisely defined (but general) terms, rath= er than following those of any one language. I might even go so far as to s= ay I don't want the taint of English in my Lojban.

We can have a= general word just meaning a bunch of countries considered together, and th= en use tanru (or lujvo if we really want) to distinguish between the differ= ent types such as the EU and the Roman Empire. Say, gu'egunma for the f= irst one, rolmeitru gu'egunma for the second, pavmeitru gu'egunma. = Dunno. I just like the idea of having a general term which is then (if need= ed at all) disambiguated by adding to it.

If you don't like the previous paragraph, we could just go with Wik= ipedia's definition (not that Wikipedia thinks "empire" only = means one thing):
"An empire is a state with politico-military domi= nion of populations who are culturally and ethnically distinct from the imperial (ruling) ethnic group and its culture[3] =97 unlike a federation, an extensive state voluntar= ily composed of autonomous states and peoples."
Sounds like sornaije'a.

So how do we translate "empire"= ;? If the source text is loose enough with the term, it's appropriate t= o use {le} and {voi}. If not, our words simply won't match up with the = source text, which is fine in my books.

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 5:20 PM, John Cowan = <cowan@mercu= ry.ccil.org> wrote:
Nathaniel Krause scripsit:

> I think the main question is whether you are trying to come up with a<= br> > gloss of an English (or other naljbo) word or whether you are describi= ng
> something in your own words.

Quite so, which is why the question "What is the Lojban word for= X?" is
misconceived. =A0Even the question "What is the German word for 'h= ard'?"
has something like 40 different answers, appropriate in different senses and contexts of use.

> So, it seems like natmi means nation in the more
> specific sense of a largish imagined community,

Basically, although a natmi can be pretty small. =A0There are only ab= out
800 Havasupai, for example (a natmi that lives inside the Grand Canyon
of the Colorado). =A0The essence of nu gugde is sovereignty, though;
most natmi don't have that.

--
John Cowan =A0 cowan@ccil.org =A0 =A0= http://ccil.org/~cow= an
You cannot enter here. =A0Go back to the abyss prepared for you! =A0Go back= !
Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. =A0Go! --Gandalf=




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