From grbounce-1SmKRQUAAADb_R2oRU4VvVPYnC2H_cF3=phma=phma.optus.nu@googlegroups.com Fri Sep 25 14:16:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: phma@localhost Delivered-To: phma@localhost Received: from chausie.ixazon.lan (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5E73296 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:16:45 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: phma@phma.optus.nu Received: from 192.168.7.2 [192.168.7.2] by chausie.ixazon.lan with IMAP (fetchmail-6.3.8) for (single-drop); Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:16:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f147.google.com (mail-qy0-f147.google.com [209.85.221.147]) by ixazon.dynip.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67911CE771 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by qyk11 with SMTP id 11so3805103qyk.17 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Dkim-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:x-sender:x-apparently-to :received:received:received:received-spf:received:received :message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:reply-to :sender:precedence:x-google-loop:mailing-list:list-id:list-post :list-help:list-unsubscribe:x-beenthere-env:x-beenthere; bh=IbBsGQy0ZwM51CpacDPxltEkA8X9VTyWOfWWKi4eop0=; b=fAmuYshuG3Y+r2Nc90l4y8SoXxG5LswDMxRKurLdWHDl7FdIWqROfMfyFbtdMhTD7r 90yE5blbRjfYujtgTkzbOjCt2E8W9XYC4Gyhz5WST2nl25rzhX+I6Qb3z0heIUFelbv6 iXDHvwAmnL4SW9jAlkPdj0Y+shLK9UzuOVsfk= Domainkey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-sender:x-apparently-to:received-spf:authentication-results :message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :x-enigmail-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:reply-to :sender:precedence:x-google-loop:mailing-list:list-id:list-post :list-help:list-unsubscribe:x-beenthere-env:x-beenthere; b=DdzO6PGyNfp1XtcqFXcy3gfUOFoPQlLS6EpH9kN1LDeSYhjLk4A0/b/JUk8vCdpaeq IZQ1I0zIJG4Jo0O2oy6AT0KjyECX+1Ko4nAFNmsa8PsQXt9jGRfmyAaqHAa6iEsEqFHR 9tl+VH4xG1637efKn/xvb7J+Kt4xIGN7+Ktys= Received: by 10.224.49.81 with SMTP id u17mr43770qaf.10.1253902311178; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.177.5.4 with SMTP id h4gr39yqi.0; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: mark@kli.org X-Apparently-To: lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.11.203 with SMTP id u11mr147761qau.3.1253902310779; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.11.203 with SMTP id u11mr147760qau.3.1253902310754; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pi.meson.org (pi.meson.org [66.134.26.207]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si359893qyk.6.2009.09.25.11.11.50; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 66.134.26.207 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of mark@kli.org) client-ip=66.134.26.207; Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 66.134.26.207 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of mark@kli.org) smtp.mail=mark@kli.org Received: (qmail 32757 invoked from network); 25 Sep 2009 14:11:49 -0400 Received: from nagas.meson.org (192.168.1.101) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 25 Sep 2009 14:11:49 -0400 Message-ID: <4ABD07E5.2020301@kli.org> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:11:49 -0400 From: "Mark E. Shoulson" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.1) Gecko/20090814 Fedora/3.0-2.6.b3.fc11 Thunderbird/3.0b3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com Subject: What are we after? X-Enigmail-Version: 0.97a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com Sender: lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com Precedence: bulk X-Google-Loop: groups Mailing-List: list lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-lbck+owner@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: , X-Beenthere-Env: lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com X-Beenthere: lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 OK. Since I wasn't paying really paying attention during the flurry of emails about this (a case of TL;DR, which I totally do NOT promise won't happen again), I went to the googlegroups site and read through the archive. Here are some of my thoughts in response to everything being discussed: I think we sort of need to get a little more back to earth on this project. Not that the discussions have not been brass-tacks practical: you can't get more reality-based than actually starting to put together the database. But I think there is a lot of very lofty, far-reaching ideals that Lojbanists are so fond of, getting in the way of the grubby, impure task ahead. So, to start with the impure: *certainly* we should start by designing the lowest level first. Even if we have the language proficiency for higher levels (which itself is questionable, depending on how high we're talking), we don't have enough (any) experience with how testing goes and how this will work in the community to handle anything higher than MAYBE three levels. Even three is a little iffy. That's why I started where I did in the googledoc, to give an idea of what kind of proficiency we should be looking for at each level. But I went about it the wrong way. Like everyone else, I was too caught up in designing the tests to pay attention to the more basic requirement of getting a handle on wtf we're doing here. So that's what we should do, I think. Try to agree amongst ourselves in a more informal (but therefore understandable!) way what it is we expect a "Level One Laureate" to be like. What should such a one be able to do? And we should enlist help with that also. Especially because, as old-timers, we forget what newcomers are like and what it's like being one. We need to talk to kribacr from IRC; he's spent a lot of time doing teaching duties on the IRC channel, and working on his order of presentation of concepts. If that's an order that people seem to learn comfortably, then that's also a good order to test people with. And maybe later talk to lindar, as one of his successful students (and mine: I started lindar off and kribacr took over). So, to start things off, when I think of what I would see in someone who had completed Level One certification (and just numbering them 1, 2, 3, is probably best), I think of somebody who can manage short, simple sentences, involving simple sumti (mi, do, ti...), basic brivla (mainly gismu, but chosen by utility and frequency, so if there's a commonly-used lujvo, no problem) and 2-piece simple tanru of them, NU abstractors, but only one level deep, and some conversationally-relevant UI and COI. I tried to express that in the document, but was thinking more in terms of test design. Try looking over it with testee description in mind and maybe we'll be able to discuss things more meaningfully. There's other stuff I probably would comment on, but this post is already way too long. Let's start with the basics and work our way up. ~mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJKvQfhAAoJENKD8527nYua1h0H/0+yXlU7HT+VyZg2I7NlcjAM 8WWfL1awl/DWTGgi2pql2U8CPz/ytJK021L4TxQuviG3DHJZQnQ8NSLFH08wgMU0 X36J0qW7CvoCmxP+aTuYwWDPrWHuBhUma4Vj4bu93af/8t2K7+qlde9NFIzLsknU tG7svV1pBN6e9aw3o6NnuA3CvtqCVEoNxJvsOmdCJnzNNyWFHIvhzLtYf1rDKcpE 1zX4h7iniOETMkLEaXukQke+j/u2B6YyA8L673Oi+U5kS3lRJ0GmKQj0guXXTGFk TsaPeA801c0fCuCXPL5X8Ki9kxMoox/jijwhFFR27dqBAVHro4/b+i0wEUPAPow= =nLR3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----