From grbounce-1SmKRQUAAADb_R2oRU4VvVPYnC2H_cF3=phma=phma.optus.nu@googlegroups.com Tue Sep 29 00:21:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: phma@localhost Delivered-To: phma@localhost Received: from chausie.ixazon.lan (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB950348D for ; Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: phma@phma.optus.nu Received: from 192.168.7.2 [192.168.7.2] by chausie.ixazon.lan with IMAP (fetchmail-6.3.8) for (single-drop); Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f202.google.com (mail-gx0-f202.google.com [209.85.217.202]) by ixazon.dynip.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC40DCE45A for ; Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by gxk26 with SMTP id 26so3385652gxk.11 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Dkim-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:x-sender:x-apparently-to :received:received:received:received-spf:received:dkim-signature :domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:reply-to:sender:precedence:x-google-loop :mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-unsubscribe :x-beenthere-env:x-beenthere; bh=g3oYlaUzvIqW/AsMmR20Bhcz4cFAL+v6wxKjqcHfLzo=; b=3LZADO4OZ707d8px6fldOIRbaFazqMhgVmQhU8g13I0iX1Ydwm+7IW9aI6ZC4BJPQE Z0kWn5Ew+qY+HkTjOzNuSywi7uiurCjc7WrUmBT9E8Ii3jT/jcgKJ6KFEw7d6Il9yDNS AfDu6NFjxmfgHc2FRQn5EI55FkOjlNOJ1Oe3g= Domainkey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-sender:x-apparently-to:received-spf:authentication-results :dkim-signature:domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:reply-to:sender:precedence:x-google-loop :mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-unsubscribe :x-beenthere-env:x-beenthere; b=24VS9mxoGdXSGU+f4/Pxoeg2wn8RSLbD7eaiQb7ddP8i3blSUeLM8z3f7fWJnoTFdl 8DjvIi1nW47S6bLJ92yq5o8+A7426HJ6wVeX02tMDgWZIIDyk5eO5dkUlW4+bQAj2KIJ ch76YfM/2HLgisBGGeXuGeBTHA0pOCuliq9XM= Received: by 10.101.67.1 with SMTP id u1mr775436ank.10.1254198030699; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.176.58.28 with SMTP id g28gr40yqa.0; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:20:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.154.18 with SMTP id g18mr3110926ago.7.1254198030326; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.154.18 with SMTP id g18mr3110925ago.7.1254198030302; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f194.google.com (mail-yx0-f194.google.com [209.85.210.194]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 12si541677gxk.7.2009.09.28.21.20.29; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.194 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.194; Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of matt.mattarn@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.194 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=matt.mattarn@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Received: by yxe32 with SMTP id 32so3215972yxe.5 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Dkim-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=FngvWkzvNbfqe7L24uhb6Ln8SwVPd5mfuFHK62l9a78=; b=WiYBylx0tzYXNj6OfNzozbZb4IBEiNAiIQVUV3nYniWMmpw3lvjG+Qx3I4V9hdniC9 QglNAgASA65D7/UvloeFDtwVq4dMWPLyL7WlJhlhE07Ilyop0djA0nI6GYr7ZTMVm8FR hvJOldVXEZE/JtllGMYkC40s72wrFEs51qEKs= Domainkey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=beIcuzMMN2PNUh0wzD4BrBu12fQQ4FRlr//XQvtWeJCOk+MhMaa95tz2aTJERj8WWn OnpTkoEzhUQX1IWY++7YAM8nuL6BBbnVlLJ0rWeaza0R0K40ikk4p+tOuTvzqof1k2IG /RMAACXkso0fd0e4znnU+3RTakEP+tPwkdQiw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.163.1 with SMTP id l1mr9241222ybe.204.1254198028959; Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:20:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4ABD07E5.2020301@kli.org> References: <4ABD07E5.2020301@kli.org> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:20:28 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: What are we after? From: Matt Arnold To: lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com Sender: lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com Precedence: bulk X-Google-Loop: groups Mailing-List: list lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-lbck+owner@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: , X-Beenthere-Env: lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com X-Beenthere: lojban-lbck@googlegroups.com Yes, I agree. I rarely use the IRC channel, but would someone here ask kribacr to join the mailing list? -Eppcott On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Mark E. Shoulson wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > OK. =C2=A0Since I wasn't paying really paying attention during the flurry= of > emails about this (a case of TL;DR, which I totally do NOT promise won't > happen again), I went to the googlegroups site and read through the > archive. =C2=A0Here are some of my thoughts in response to everything bei= ng > discussed: > > I think we sort of need to get a little more back to earth on this > project. =C2=A0Not that the discussions have not been brass-tacks practic= al: > you can't get more reality-based than actually starting to put together > the database. =C2=A0But I think there is a lot of very lofty, far-reachin= g > ideals that Lojbanists are so fond of, getting in the way of the grubby, > impure task ahead. > > So, to start with the impure: *certainly* we should start by designing > the lowest level first. =C2=A0Even if we have the language proficiency fo= r > higher levels (which itself is questionable, depending on how high we're > talking), we don't have enough (any) experience with how testing goes > and how this will work in the community to handle anything higher than > MAYBE three levels. =C2=A0Even three is a little iffy. > > That's why I started where I did in the googledoc, to give an idea of > what kind of proficiency we should be looking for at each level. =C2=A0Bu= t I > went about it the wrong way. =C2=A0Like everyone else, I was too caught u= p in > designing the tests to pay attention to the more basic requirement of > getting a handle on wtf we're doing here. > > So that's what we should do, I think. =C2=A0Try to agree amongst ourselve= s in > a more informal (but therefore understandable!) way what it is we expect > a "Level One Laureate" to be like. =C2=A0What should such a one be able t= o do? > > And we should enlist help with that also. =C2=A0Especially because, as > old-timers, we forget what newcomers are like and what it's like being > one. =C2=A0We need to talk to kribacr from IRC; he's spent a lot of time > doing teaching duties on the IRC channel, and working on his order of > presentation of concepts. =C2=A0If that's an order that people seem to le= arn > comfortably, then that's also a good order to test people with. =C2=A0And > maybe later talk to lindar, as one of his successful students (and mine: > I started lindar off and kribacr took over). > > So, to start things off, when I think of what I would see in someone who > had completed Level One certification (and just numbering them 1, 2, 3, > is probably best), I think of somebody who can manage short, simple > sentences, involving simple sumti (mi, do, ti...), basic brivla (mainly > gismu, but chosen by utility and frequency, so if there's a > commonly-used lujvo, no problem) and 2-piece simple tanru of them, NU > abstractors, but only one level deep, and some conversationally-relevant > UI and COI. =C2=A0I tried to express that in the document, but was thinki= ng > more in terms of test design. =C2=A0Try looking over it with testee > description in mind and maybe we'll be able to discuss things more > meaningfully. > > There's other stuff I probably would comment on, but this post is > already way too long. =C2=A0Let's start with the basics and work our way = up. > > ~mark > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJKvQfhAAoJENKD8527nYua1h0H/0+yXlU7HT+VyZg2I7NlcjAM > 8WWfL1awl/DWTGgi2pql2U8CPz/ytJK021L4TxQuviG3DHJZQnQ8NSLFH08wgMU0 > X36J0qW7CvoCmxP+aTuYwWDPrWHuBhUma4Vj4bu93af/8t2K7+qlde9NFIzLsknU > tG7svV1pBN6e9aw3o6NnuA3CvtqCVEoNxJvsOmdCJnzNNyWFHIvhzLtYf1rDKcpE > 1zX4h7iniOETMkLEaXukQke+j/u2B6YyA8L673Oi+U5kS3lRJ0GmKQj0guXXTGFk > TsaPeA801c0fCuCXPL5X8Ki9kxMoox/jijwhFFR27dqBAVHro4/b+i0wEUPAPow=3D > =3DnLR3 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >