Received: from localhost ([::1]:49119 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YzAI5-0001R8-RR; Sun, 31 May 2015 13:57:06 -0700 Received: from mail-wi0-f177.google.com ([209.85.212.177]:37469) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YzAHz-0001Qv-Kg for llg-board@lojban.org; Sun, 31 May 2015 13:57:04 -0700 Received: by wifw1 with SMTP id w1so82448179wif.0 for ; Sun, 31 May 2015 13:56:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=aJXfG8+NY+rDXM+hRY7IM7CDyFnw1CSC/cAynUUb3Vg=; b=Geb4xSJ5Lyxg0f5fb8oBVY/DVNMG73/pS2tozw1HgyZCiQhZf0+ggi055IgBtz5xbb MFf3dbG65o3ZU/suYS3/1JUA3pnpMhbMI+fY2I2xrkrdd2DXimL+qU6us8/T3UTtWPAZ kdZAk0B90h9MFUfZt6eGfoymnCSKMwZoot8GwmoBUSZiB9j5gw54YHraSAJKPslkPpMj Lu/ArnJYK4fZKj8wFrtk1bE0TJW9ejXl7gxtOqGTA1IckInJKA1cGl9SJNL8meLUmXfI 5XYZDqPCtJ29n8QN3JP87hkMMpKBxIISFatCk+ifr+vsQ0o+pTc0YF40tDSRdveyq3hX 4KrA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.9.6 with SMTP id v6mr14829427wia.83.1433105812538; Sun, 31 May 2015 13:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.27.170.193 with HTTP; Sun, 31 May 2015 13:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.27.170.193 with HTTP; Sun, 31 May 2015 13:56:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7EE71AC4-CE8B-4B5B-86F6-470184858A8D@gmail.com> References: <554513DC.1040404@lojban.org> <67FF02B5-7AF9-49A1-87A8-B8C1F76A16AA@gmail.com> <554B1CA4.1060509@lojban.org> <5550DD9F.2010607@lojban.org> <556B4694.9070603@gmail.com> <7EE71AC4-CE8B-4B5B-86F6-470184858A8D@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 31 May 2015 21:56:52 +0100 Message-ID: From: And Rosta To: llg-board@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [llg-board] Board election X-BeenThere: llg-board@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-board@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0066822173460124825==" Errors-To: llg-board-bounces@lojban.org --===============0066822173460124825== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c23d9ce1ca64051766f20c --001a11c23d9ce1ca64051766f20c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 31 May 2015 21:02, "Riley Martinez-Lynch" wrote: > > > I think this demonstrates exactly what we need in a VP: Someone who notices that the meeting is stalled, and does what is needed to get things moving again. Right. But to be clear, I don't want to take on that important role. Large amounts of my too-demanding professional life involve that role (at my university I lead the team of academics who teach linguistics, and I lead the team of trade union representatives who represent the 1200 academics at the university). > I second And's proposal. I especially appreciate the idea of tying the recruitment of directors to a discussion of the officers election. > > Regarding And's question about the how the president is elected, I personally think that the current system is adequate: That the principal problem in electing a leader is a dearth of candidates. I'm skeptical as to whether changing the way a president is selected from the pool of candidates is likely to alleviate that problem. I think my suggestion ameliorates it relative to the status quo, as does yours. There are other ways to improve on the status quo, no doubt. > > But on a related note, I believe that one problem facing LLG -- one which weighs on the recruitment of leadership -- is the history of a benevolent neglect of transparency. Which is to say that while nobody was actively trying to obfuscate what was happening inside LLG, for years even that modest activity was invisible outside of the organization: Invisible even to some of the most active people in the lojban-using community. Which is to say that for some time, many of the people most qualified to take on active roles in LLG haven't had enough information to understand how the organization works or what it might look like to join the organization as a member or board member of officer and try to get something done. > > So, while I personally don't see it as problematic that the board elects officers, and the membership elects the board, I do think that it's important to make efforts to raise awareness of these activities. I have at least one relevant proposal in mind for the board's attention: I was planning on raising it after the officer's election, but this seems like a good time to offer a preview: I want to open the llg-members mailing list, such that anyone can read it, but only members may make unmoderated posts to the list. I agree about opening the llg-members archives. Probably you should check on the list itself that nobody objects. > > To make it clear, I'm not at all opposed to developing new bylaws governing elections. I seem to recall that someone -- was it guskant? -- had some interesting ideas about balloting that were discussed during the meeting. But I want to emphasize that my primary and immediate concern is with finding willing and qualified candidates. I think the proposal I sketched on the members list is a small improvement on the status quo and possibly has the virtue of reducing effort relative to the status quo. On the other hand, most people find there to be an inherent virtue in statusquohood, so it's quite possible that LLG prefers to keep things as they are, just because that's how they are. And > > --Riley > > On May 31, 2015, at 1:36 PM, And Rosta wrote: > > > I think nobody has spoken against this. I'd be delighted not to be VP, but am offering to do it as community service (the performance of which, in the UK, appallingly, is regarded as a punishment for criminals). > > > > Accordingly, I tentatively propose to the Board the following (but see my last para below): > > 1. Bob be President > > 2. I be VP > > 3. We aim to convene the next LLG meeting within the next three months, or as soon as possible after that. At that point, I, unless I have become crazed with power, will resign as VP. The meeting will elect a new board. If it is allowed to, then the meeting will elect the officers too, but if the board elects the officers then at least candidates for election tot the board will be asked to state their willingness to take on officerships. > > 4. Before the next LLG meeting I will put out a call for nominations for LLG membership and in particular for Pres/VP roles, noting the possibility of a transitional period while one of those roles is taken by Bob. > > > > > > Before putting that to a vote, tho, I'd like to consider a certain anomaly in our organization. We have tended to see LLG as a business organization, where people of proven goodwill and activism donate a bit of time to help in the running of Lojban; for quoracy reasons we try to confine membership to people who are reliably active. Not unreasonably, Bob thinks we need someone to take on an active leadership role. If that person is effectual in the role then they wield quite a lot of power and influence. In that case, it matters who elects that leader and by what electoral process. Can we do better than our present methods? > > > > --And. > > > > > > And Rosta, On 12/05/2015 16:49: > >> My interpretation of Riley's suggestion is that during what we'd intend to be the curtailed terms of Pres (Bob) and VP (maybe me), the Pres and VP focus on recruiting onto the board people interested in undertaking various kinds of leadership; they'd join the board at the next LLG meeting, which would be called later this year. > >> > >> If this is what Riley and Craig support too, then I suggest we give it a few days to see if anyone wants to make a counterproposal. I do want to add that if someone else would like to volunteer for the VP role as outlined above, I will be pleased rather than chagrined; I'd rather leave the effort to someone else (& indeed I volunteered for the board only so as to encourage other more suitable colleagues to volunteer; I hadn't expected to actually be elected). > >> > >> --And > >> > >> On 12 May 2015 16:34, "Craig Daniel" > wrote: > >> > >> I would support this, conditioned on the board taking steps to encourage and assist the unofficial leaders within the Lojban community. > >> > >> > >> On 5:52am, Tue, May 12, 2015 Riley Martinez-Lynch < shunpiker@gmail.com > wrote: > >> > >> On May 12, 2015, at 5:17 AM, And Rosta > wrote: > >>> > >>> The members of the Board and even of the LLG weren't selected with the purpose of ensuring the Board contained someone suitable for the sort of active leadership role you very reasonably envisage as desirable. > >>> > >> I suspect we may be seeing here a consequence of the fact that the responsibilities of the Board are little understood by the community, and even by the membership. This lack of understanding is at once cause and effect of the long period during which there were few recruits, and has had the effect -- as lojbab underscored in his presidential report a few years back -- of shrinking the pool of prospective leaders. > >> > >> I think there's agreement that going forward the Board should make efforts to keep the community informed about its work, if only in the interest of cultivating potential directors and officers. I intend to work on that as secretary. > >>> > >>> I have too much on in my life that requires me to be promptly attentive to business for me to volunteer to take on this role. I am, tho, willing to work with Riley on establishing whether the community wants an active leader and on finding one; I would offer to take the VP role for one year if that was the extent of my duties. > >>> > >> I would support And taking on the role of VP, noting that one of the duties of the president, which could possibly be delegated to the vice president, is the determination of the timing of the annual meeting, and by extension, the election of officers by the board. So in the case that our effort to recruit new leadership bears fruit, the president and vice president could choose to abbreviate their terms by calling the meeting to order in late summer, etc. > >> > >> --Riley > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> llg-board mailing list > >> llg-board@lojban.org > >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> llg-board mailing list > >> llg-board@lojban.org > >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > llg-board mailing list > > llg-board@lojban.org > > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board > > > _______________________________________________ > llg-board mailing list > llg-board@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board --001a11c23d9ce1ca64051766f20c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 31 May 2015 21:02, "Riley Martinez-Lynch" <<= a href=3D"mailto:shunpiker@gmail.com">shunpiker@gmail.com> wrote: >
>
> I think this demonstrates exactly what we need in a VP: Someone who no= tices that the meeting is stalled, and does what is needed to get things mo= ving again.

Right. But to be clear, I don't want to take on that imp= ortant role. Large amounts of my too-demanding professional life involve th= at role (at my university I lead the team of academics who teach linguistic= s, and I lead the team of trade union representatives who represent=C2=A0 t= he 1200 academics at the university).

> I second And's proposal. I especially appreciate th= e idea of tying the recruitment of directors to a discussion of the officer= s election.
>
> Regarding And's question about the how the president is elected, I= personally think that the current system is adequate: That the principal p= roblem in electing a leader is a dearth of candidates. I'm skeptical as= to whether changing the way a president is selected from the pool of candi= dates is likely to alleviate that problem.

I think my suggestion ameliorates it relative to the status = quo, as does yours. There are other ways to improve on the status quo, no d= oubt.

>
> But on a related note, I believe that one problem facing LLG -- one wh= ich weighs on the recruitment of leadership -- is the history of a benevole= nt neglect of transparency. Which is to say that while nobody was actively = trying to obfuscate what was happening inside LLG, for years even that mode= st activity was invisible outside of the organization: Invisible even to so= me of the most active people in the lojban-using community. Which is to say= that for some time, many of the people most qualified to take on active ro= les in LLG haven't had enough information to understand how the organiz= ation works or what it might look like to join the organization as a member= or board member of officer and try to get something done.
>
> So, while I personally don't see it as problematic that the board = elects officers, and the membership elects the board, I do think that it= 9;s important to make efforts to raise awareness of these activities. I hav= e at least one relevant proposal in mind for the board's attention: I w= as planning on raising it after the officer's election, but this seems = like a good time to offer a preview: I want to open the llg-members mailing= list, such that anyone can read it, but only members may make unmoderated = posts to the list.

I agree about opening the llg-members archives. Probably you= should check on the list itself that nobody objects.

>
> To make it clear, I'm not at all opposed to developing new bylaws = governing elections. I seem to recall that someone -- was it guskant? --=C2= =A0 had some interesting ideas about balloting that were discussed during t= he meeting. But I want to emphasize that my primary and immediate concern i= s with finding willing and qualified candidates.

I think the proposal I sketched on the members list is a sma= ll improvement on the status quo and possibly has the virtue of reducing ef= fort relative to the status quo.

On the other hand, most people find there to be an inherent = virtue in statusquohood, so it's quite possible that LLG prefers to kee= p things as they are, just because that's how they are.

And

>
> --Riley
>
> On May 31, 2015, at 1:36 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think nobody has spoken against this. I'd be delighted not = to be VP, but am offering to do it as community service (the performance of= which, in the UK, appallingly, is regarded as a punishment for criminals).=
> >
> > Accordingly, I tentatively propose to the Board the following (bu= t see my last para below):
> > 1. Bob be President
> > 2. I be VP
> > 3. We aim to convene the next LLG meeting within the next three m= onths, or as soon as possible after that. At that point, I, unless I have b= ecome crazed with power, will resign as VP. The meeting will elect a new bo= ard. If it is allowed to, then the meeting will elect the officers too, but= if the board elects the officers then at least candidates for election tot= the board will be asked to state their willingness to take on officerships= .
> > 4. Before the next LLG meeting I will put out a call for nominati= ons for LLG membership and in particular for Pres/VP roles, noting the poss= ibility of a transitional period while one of those roles is taken by Bob.<= br> > >
> >
> > Before putting that to a vote, tho, I'd like to consider a ce= rtain anomaly in our organization. We have tended to see LLG as a business = organization, where people of proven goodwill and activism donate a bit of = time to help in the running of Lojban; for quoracy reasons we try to confin= e membership to people who are reliably active. Not unreasonably, Bob think= s we need someone to take on an active leadership role. If that person is e= ffectual in the role then they wield quite a lot of power and influence. In= that case, it matters who elects that leader and by what electoral process= .=C2=A0 Can we do better than our present methods?
> >
> > --And.
> >
> >
> > And Rosta, On 12/05/2015 16:49:
> >> My interpretation of Riley's suggestion is that during wh= at we'd intend to be the curtailed terms of Pres (Bob) and VP (maybe me= ), the Pres and VP focus on recruiting onto the board people interested in = undertaking various kinds of leadership; they'd join the board at the n= ext LLG meeting, which would be called later this year.
> >>
> >> If this is what Riley and Craig support too, then I suggest w= e give it a few days to see if anyone wants to make a counterproposal. I do= want to add that if someone else would like to volunteer for the VP role a= s outlined above, I will be pleased rather than chagrined; I'd rather l= eave the effort to someone else (& indeed I volunteered for the board o= nly so as to encourage other more suitable colleagues to volunteer; I hadn&= #39;t expected to actually be elected).
> >>
> >> --And
> >>
> >> On 12 May 2015 16:34, "Craig Daniel" <craigbdaniel@gmail.com <mailto:craigbdaniel@gmail.com>> wro= te:
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would support this, conditioned on the board t= aking steps to encourage and assist the unofficial leaders within the Lojba= n community.
> >>
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 5:52am, Tue, May 12, 2015 Riley Martinez-Lync= h <shunpiker@gmail.com <ma= ilto:shunpiker@gmail.com>>= wrote:
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On May 12, 2015, at 5:17 AM, And R= osta <and.rosta@gmail.com <= ;mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com>&= gt; wrote:
> >>>
> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The members of the Board and e= ven of the LLG weren't selected with the purpose of ensuring the Board = contained someone suitable for the sort of active leadership role you very = reasonably envisage as desirable.
> >>>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I suspect we may be seeing here a = consequence of the fact that the responsibilities of the Board are little u= nderstood by the community, and even by the membership. This lack of unders= tanding is at once cause and effect of the long period during which there w= ere few recruits, and has had the effect -- as lojbab underscored in his pr= esidential report a few years back -- of shrinking the pool of prospective = leaders.
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think there's agreement that= going forward the Board should make efforts to keep the community informed= about its work, if only in the interest of cultivating potential directors= and officers. I intend to work on that as secretary.
> >>>
> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I have too much on in my life = that requires me to be promptly attentive to business for me to volunteer t= o take on this role. I am, tho, willing to work with Riley on establishing = whether the community wants an active leader and on finding one; I would of= fer to take the VP role for one year if that was the extent of my duties. > >>>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would support And taking on the = role of VP, noting that one of the duties of the president, which could pos= sibly be delegated to the vice president, is the determination of the timin= g of the annual meeting, and by extension, the election of officers by the = board. So in the case that our effort to recruit new leadership bears fruit= , the president and vice president could choose to abbreviate their terms b= y calling the meeting to order in late summer, etc.
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --Riley
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 __________________________________= _____________
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 llg-board mailing list
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 llg-board@lojban.org <mailto:llg-board@lojban.org>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-boa= rd
> >>
> >>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________<= br> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 llg-board mailing list
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 llg-boar= d@lojban.org <mailto:llg-boa= rd@lojban.org>
> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > llg-board mailing list
> > llg-board@lojban.org<= br> > > htt= p://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> llg-board mailing list
> llg-board@lojban.org
> http://m= ail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board

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