Received: from localhost ([::1]:43628 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1bIICV-0000TN-N5; Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:18:55 -0700 Received: from mail-vk0-f51.google.com ([209.85.213.51]:34886) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1bIICP-0000T5-DQ for llg-board@lojban.org; Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:18:53 -0700 Received: by mail-vk0-f51.google.com with SMTP id u68so30259043vkf.2 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:18:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to; bh=MZ8q+Rr1eAawJHOpKCYv02qbvDWIUNh0qBjnkKA+LqY=; b=fkvEgCaFE+ZrOQDiDL0R1sh9Qp5/X1NppU7X41TKn8OPkqwubZ2Bq47nlhDDR4Atuv em98oYQvT8sUC9MFJmF0TgnA8jisYGwJQ3OO9zsBJk5GDXbX0E/ZwfAQuC9sxXoQ7/hz KzR+sNWZx7O1dxBLGuj5jX9LyHiTSXI/xd3d2tkI5W6zRP1GjBQz6rdkYFL5d68OzUTH sMPSPxGHuBRsBI/lPcNS8MDXO1I0GlR6pQdTLokgLsX7pfG3Vq91lDk452Cdza0CObkA ao7buxza+fLUM1gYzqiemVit9PFHW6CaVo1Bqc2q+MZECW55IAbxWZbH56Qhy8rkDCof H8SQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to; bh=MZ8q+Rr1eAawJHOpKCYv02qbvDWIUNh0qBjnkKA+LqY=; b=Upkd5RoUs5fwTJco+OtX+gymchAuQBZqkt7jTawsGtqOLMzvsEIpRKOiV97ISc1m2a 0SETeqfEVEaqYd2sadUZNiLaTlUT4nasEuD54LpQ+Z3dxdiwxUNFJlNBSiXH2s/lZ+Gp YDux3xljiuRwXRemyQiCyxHhaaA95gYPMk88b2Yqz8DryZrIieWwHVnwIAsN5XFqK+V3 NBSd3+Ton0iWmWaIg0zSgccGa9duxO1dIn3G4SLKK6twkQE9f82Sw741jy0FGif5sZ6r wQTEmi/1zD+yqnaUZa/iTfji2CSDjAoADgxgj2HHHTbd3g/uRPBDVcdG0izzIC9yX/PK sKVA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJNIuUB7f3krP5/99AzM4v87da6iM7H+xs7ad8dm2hElm2qdnPWoPNBN6Tfl3ap5VOrVpR2jByCv8VBGg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.82.67 with SMTP id g64mr4156814vkb.77.1467217122908; Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.159.55.141 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.159.55.141 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:18:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <33ef899e-478f-eee0-1e8e-38e71ccfbc26@lojban.org> <23A0B5F9-6EDC-4555-8959-B61B11D8580E@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2016 12:18:42 -0400 Message-ID: From: Curtis Franks To: llg-board@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [llg-board] Volunteers and qualifications for office X-BeenThere: llg-board@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-board@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5765164512730980300==" Errors-To: llg-board-bounces@lojban.org --===============5765164512730980300== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e572a6b5ee205366d1bdb --001a114e572a6b5ee205366d1bdb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am happy to address such questions. Firstly, I am more opposed to my proposal than I originally was. That should just be noted. Mostly, it is due to the unnecessary nature of it (sorry for the wasted time) and terminology being confusing, given other usages. But to address your concern, you are right in only the sense that organizations such as the LLG consitute a 'faction'. It was intention that the LLG would unilaterally endow itself with legitimacy by the means of its very governing text. It is like the U.S. Constitution making itself the supreme law of the land. Sure, both already were, but having it down in ink is nice. But, since the LLG has less ability to enforce compliance than the U.S. government, it is actually a vulnerability to point out that this endowment is being made - before, it would be assumed, but now (if the motion were to be debated by us or the public) it may be challenged. I think that I ventured too far into political theory. I want to reassure you that I will carry out the will of the consensus, (super)majority, or plurality, as the case requires. I will be mindful to separate official capacity and duty from personal intentions and desires. On Jun 29, 2016 09:18, "Riley Martinez-Lynch" wrote: I appreciate Curtis volunteering to take on these responsibilities and the way that he has responded directly to the criteria that I suggested. His initiative in confronting those concerns helps to check my reservations. There=E2=80=99s no discourse management attitudinal for directness, is ther= e? I=E2=80=99m think something that would work out to =E2=80=9Clet me be frank vs beating = around the bush=E2=80=9D. In any case, ta=E2=80=99o nai, let me be frank. There=E2=80=99s one exchang= e during the meeting which has stuck with me, and which I need to understand better before I can take a position on Curtis=E2=80=99 candidacy. Curtis, I=E2=80=99m hoping you will help me to understand what you meant wh= en, following your proposal to amend the BPFK charter, you wrote: "this would, purposefully, give certain groups advantage over others depending on the circumstances. That was the primary intention (although that cannot be said because doing so undermines the purpose - but here we are now! :P ).=E2=80=9D It=E2=80=99s possible that I misapprehended what you meant, but I construed= this to say that your intention in proposing the amendment was to redistribute influence among factions that you had in mind but were not explicitly naming, and that you had tactically concealed this intention. If I misunderstood, I=E2=80=99d like to give you an opportunity to explain = how I should have interpreted what you wrote. To the extent that I didn=E2=80=99t misunderstand, I=E2=80=99d like to ask you to fully disclose your thoughts = about which groups you had in mind, and which circumstances. I want to be clear: It=E2=80=99s important that a candidate for president o= r vice president have strong opinions about how we operate organizationally. It=E2= =80=99s not necessary for me to agree with a candidate on all the particulars, or even many of the generals, for them to gain my support. But I do want to know exactly where they stand. Above all, I need to be sure that they are committed to enacting the will of the community that they represent, even at the expense of their personal vision. This is important because the underlying value, the primacy of the community of speakers, is, as I understand it, why lojban is our loglan. =E2=80=94Riley no=E2=80=99u la mukti On Jun 29, 2016, at 3:31 AM, Curtis Franks wrote: I hesitate to assume for myself, in the absence of any competition or even commentary, the office of President because I do not want to seem like I am reaching or trying to amass power and, equally importantly, I recognize that I lack the familiarity and experience that may be desired for the executor of the role; moreover, I have not demonstrated in the final months of the last meeting, any skill or experience in consensus-building or successful legislation-drafting - in fact, I realize that I was a startling failure in these domains. I understand that this performance was uninspiring, contentious, and unhelpful. I will try to improve no matter what my role. All that I can say for my prior conduct was that I was trying to be constructive and active - to do something and to avoid pitfalls in the process. I do think that I can do a good job in any office that I hold if I am given guidance, assistance, patience, and perhaps some direction. I will conduct myself more appropriately as I observe and judge, and as I am advised, in such a role. But I also understand that I have far from earned the trust of my peers. I do not want to bring doubt or grievance to management of this organization. I do not want people to lose faith in it. It may be the case that my recognizing these things - my failings and weaknesses - and my pledge to consciously improve with respect to them may secure for myself some small fraction of faith from others. Still, I believe that, unless another course is necessary, a gradual transition would be best. That way, I can test the waters and others can test me. I am more keen on the Vice-Presidential role as a result. But I also understand Lojbab's reluctance in continuing his present office and that some large degree of power-sharing is likely; I imagine that (should he retain his present role) he will begin and then bring me up to speed in efforts, history, style, and advice for conduct. Then, he will guide me and step in occasionally, as he deems desirable or necessary, gradually phasing out almost entirely as the meeting proceeds; I will increase in presence in inverse proportion. Of course, he may choose to do otherwise - he does not need my welcome here, and especially not my permission, but he has both in abundance. In short, I happily, although somewhat reservedly and self-consciously, nominate myself for the office of Vice-President. I hope to be admirably vigorous in my intention, but also wise in its conduct. If absolutely desired by the community or necessary by development of events, I will take the office of President with more reservation. I do still welcome others to nominate alternatives who may be more qualified and demonstratedly trustworthy. I will do my very best, but I understand my perception and position. I offer myself, essentially, as a willing last-resort. On Jun 25, 2016 19:53, "Curtis Franks" wrote: > I agree about the timing and will hold off for a few days so that others > may comment or join the process. > On Jun 25, 2016 19:45, "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" < > lojbab@lojban.org> wrote: > >> So Riley has volunteered as both Secretary and Treasurer, and no one els= e >> has. >> >> Curtis has said he would be interested in either President or Vice >> President. >> >> I'm willing to be President for another year, but I'm not enthusiastic >> because I don't think I did a very good job this past year, and am not s= ure >> I can do better in the coming year. I guess the same would be true for >> Vice President. I can also imagine Curtis as VP to me as President, and= my >> largely delegating the job to him, at least insofar as *active* >> leadership. But if he feels up to the Presidency as it is, maybe he wou= ld >> be the better choice for President. (My inactivity doesn't suggest any >> obvious role for me as VP other than as a name to fill the slot.) >> >> If no one else speaks up for any office (maybe allow another day or two >> at most), I suggest that someone move a particular slate, rather than >> holding an election where there aren't multiple candidates. Curtis is >> probably the best one to make such a motion since he knows best which of >> the two top jobs he is more willing/interested in to serve, but anyone c= an >> make the motion. >> >> lojbab >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> llg-board mailing list >> llg-board@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board >> > _______________________________________________ llg-board mailing list llg-board@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board _______________________________________________ llg-board mailing list llg-board@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board --001a114e572a6b5ee205366d1bdb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am happy to address such questions.

Firstly, I am more opposed to my proposal than I originally = was. That should just be noted. Mostly, it is due to the unnecessary nature= of it (sorry for the wasted time) and terminology being confusing, given o= ther usages.

But to address your concern, you are right in only the sense= that organizations such as the LLG consitute a 'faction'. It was i= ntention that the LLG would unilaterally endow itself with legitimacy by th= e means of its very governing text. It is like the U.S. Constitution making= itself the supreme law of the land. Sure, both already were, but having it= down in ink is nice. But, since the LLG has less ability to enforce compli= ance than the U.S. government, it is actually a vulnerability to point out = that this endowment is being made - before, it would be assumed, but now (i= f the motion were to be debated by us or the public) it may be challenged. = I think that I ventured too far into political theory.

I want to reassure you that I will carry out the will of the= consensus, (super)majority, or plurality, as the case requires. I will be = mindful to separate official capacity and duty from personal intentions and= desires.

On Jun 29, 2016 09:18, "Riley Martinez-Lync= h" <shunpiker@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
I appreciate Curtis volunteering to take on these= responsibilities and the way that he has responded directly to the criteri= a that I suggested. His initiative in confronting those concerns helps to c= heck my reservations.

There=E2=80=99s no discourse= management attitudinal for directness, is there? I=E2=80=99m think somethi= ng that would work out to =E2=80=9Clet me be frank vs beating around the bu= sh=E2=80=9D.

In any case, ta=E2=80=99o nai, let me= be frank. There=E2=80=99s one exchange during the meeting which has stuck = with me, and which I need to understand better before I can take a position= on Curtis=E2=80=99 candidacy.

Curtis, I=E2=80=99m= hoping you will help me to understand what you meant when, following your = proposal to amend the BPFK charter, you wrote:

"this wou= ld, purposefully, give certain groups advantage over others depending on th= e=C2=A0circumstances. That was the primary intention (although that cannot = be said because doing so=C2=A0undermines the purpose - but here we are now!= :P ).=E2=80=9D

It=E2=80=99s possible= that I misapprehended what you meant, but I construed this to say that you= r intention in proposing the amendment was to redistribute influence among = factions that you had in mind but were not explicitly naming, and that you = had tactically concealed this intention.

If I misu= nderstood, I=E2=80=99d like to give you an opportunity to explain how I sho= uld have interpreted what you wrote. To the extent that I didn=E2=80=99t mi= sunderstand, I=E2=80=99d like to ask you to fully disclose your thoughts ab= out which groups you had in mind, and which circumstances.

I want to be clear: It=E2=80=99s important that a candidate for pr= esident or vice president have strong opinions about how we operate organiz= ationally. It=E2=80=99s not necessary for me to agree with a candidate on a= ll the particulars, or even many of the generals, for them to gain my suppo= rt. But I do want to know exactly where they stand. Above all, I need to be= sure that they are committed to enacting the will of the community that th= ey represent, even at the expense of their personal vision.

<= /div>
This is important because the underlying value, the primacy of th= e community of speakers, is, as I understand it, why lojban is our loglan.= =C2=A0

=E2=80=94Riley n= o=E2=80=99u la mukti

On Jun 29, 2016, at 3:31 AM, Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@= gmail.com> wrote:

I hesitate to assume = for myself, in the absence of any competition or even commentary, the offic= e of President because I do not want to seem like I am reaching or trying t= o amass power and, equally importantly, I recognize that I lack the familia= rity and experience that may be desired for the executor of the role; moreo= ver, I have not demonstrated in the final months of the last meeting, any s= kill or experience in consensus-building or successful legislation-drafting= - in fact, I realize that I was a startling failure in these domains. I un= derstand that this performance was uninspiring, contentious, and unhelpful.= I will try to improve no matter what my role. All that I can say for my pr= ior conduct was that I was trying to be constructive and active - to do som= ething and to avoid pitfalls in the process. I do think that I can do a goo= d job in any office that I hold if I am given guidance, assistance, patienc= e, and perhaps some direction. I will conduct myself more appropriately as = I observe and judge, and as I am advised, in such a role. But I also unders= tand that I have far from earned the trust of my peers. I do not want to br= ing doubt or grievance to management of this organization. I do not want pe= ople to lose faith in it. It may be the case that my recognizing these thin= gs - my failings and weaknesses - and my pledge to consciously improve with= respect to them may secure for myself some small fraction of faith from ot= hers.

Still, I believe that, unless another course is nec= essary, a gradual transition would be best. That way, I can test the waters= and others can test me. I am more keen on the Vice-Presidential role as a = result. But I also understand Lojbab's reluctance in continuing his pre= sent office and that some large degree of power-sharing is likely; I imagin= e that (should he retain his present role) he will begin and then bring me = up to speed in efforts, history, style, and advice for conduct. Then, he wi= ll guide me and step in occasionally, as he deems desirable or necessary, g= radually phasing out almost entirely as the meeting proceeds; I will increa= se in presence in inverse proportion. Of course, he may choose to do otherw= ise - he does not need my welcome here, and especially not my permission, b= ut he has both in abundance.

In short, I happily, althoug= h somewhat reservedly and self-consciously, nominate myself for the office = of Vice-President. I hope to be admirably vigorous in my intention, but als= o wise in its conduct. If absolutely desired by the community or necessary = by development of events, I will take the office of President with more res= ervation.

I do still welcome others to nominate alternati= ves who may be more qualified and demonstratedly trustworthy. I will do my = very best, but I understand my perception and position. I offer myself, ess= entially, as a willing last-resort.

On Jun 25, 2016 19:53, "Curtis Franks"= <curtis.= w.franks@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree about the timing and will hold off for= a few days so that others may comment or join the process.

On Jun 25, 2016 19:45, "Bob LeChevalier, Pr= esident and Founder - LLG" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
So Riley has volunteered as both Secretary and= Treasurer, and no one else has.

Curtis has said he would be interested in either President or Vice Presiden= t.

I'm willing to be President for another year, but I'm not enthusias= tic because I don't think I did a very good job this past year, and am = not sure I can do better in the coming year.=C2=A0 I guess the same would b= e true for Vice President.=C2=A0 I can also imagine Curtis as VP to me as P= resident, and my largely delegating the job to him, at least insofar as *ac= tive* leadership.=C2=A0 But if he feels up to the Presidency as it is, mayb= e he would be the better choice for President. (My inactivity doesn't s= uggest any obvious role for me as VP other than as a name to fill the slot.= )

If no one else speaks up for any office=C2=A0 (maybe allow another day or t= wo at most), I suggest that someone move a particular slate, rather than ho= lding an election where there aren't multiple candidates.=C2=A0 Curtis = is probably the best one to make such a motion since he knows best which of= the two top jobs he is more willing/interested in to serve, but anyone can= make the motion.

lojbab



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