Received: from localhost ([::1]:46281 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1bIWs7-0005wJ-Me; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:58:51 -0700 Received: from mail-lf0-f48.google.com ([209.85.215.48]:34542) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1bIWry-0005v8-NA for llg-board@lojban.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:58:49 -0700 Received: by mail-lf0-f48.google.com with SMTP id h129so49611370lfh.1 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:58:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=K2V9mtPxf04ORE/3yWzvBNm5LAhF/nuw2TLs3tMLA2o=; b=vJItEB8+AzwHLb3aGUPUuqGVNNQxVSLQkEXafxZGLleRJFg/4xghGKZxWPiDqHUl/D hJAkMVhuFlVefYpt0+7aYgdWP7Pt6WeK5u0F5IvzSNAJLdJSOLLGPpPso5WOBl0NudfZ 2b7vJELViLwY26tmaiCPkSGTcalRdGnl75lnh3g7BmiEaOECWCr+MDBTAX+UpxYqugO6 icPvNotEcY5UXi5ZxDWXt3uFEp+p1WKSTRFex/pXo1aXEGElh5fS0SZRZ9xoF3wJWoMA EOCNd3syK+oIYVrpJotOWIKe2lYn0PrbbMLZ5lIn0Z5Z9hQ3zb9nvtD/pcABxsIUJbfT TCpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=K2V9mtPxf04ORE/3yWzvBNm5LAhF/nuw2TLs3tMLA2o=; b=SNeaaPVARo6L3HXu6/cO69Yokd6/HTHQJO14C7eGR9BvJsTRWvs9yaQ4erZDUzw2tl YeJw+NFHigs+iRpuqcXG96mL2lhAY9Wfog1JsHYcZMh36BEmp7OUlh0nNeszqwIl3Rjd gNSyXFfDNVTGubCg6cZeITlr6IyKSGtwwNdE7fT/pPQ8E8yQ2UNufvIAn8c/V4s29Uzz tn41srxW2w3wwTqM62QN4M/LnW1M51TQ2nX9nHwq8+6LE8jziw+q6ozfJYErlY7bY8fr ok1gkVRT5EZpNlKUuRJyXPUkhsMwmpBUPCCUWg0PUspZByDmXt5J1FrhUQafwF/i9wmw 8kXg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJV/qO2ovIT4IcdUJ5QkNpuvKD3c6I/Lq3mkLdWSU42VtkrNEZ9YcfJO8cOsqOxwLxFLX10DVj3cEsR9w== X-Received: by 10.46.71.206 with SMTP id u197mr3674817lja.16.1467273515108; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:58:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.24.164 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:57:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <822daa99-6878-512e-6793-0d3a5f0fd70a@selpahi.de> References: <822daa99-6878-512e-6793-0d3a5f0fd70a@selpahi.de> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:57:55 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-board@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [llg-board] Volunteers and qualifications for office X-BeenThere: llg-board@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-board@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4604319866609985123==" Errors-To: llg-board-bounces@lojban.org --===============4604319866609985123== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114101d8a80d9a05367a3c15 --001a114101d8a80d9a05367a3c15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2016-06-29 21:27 GMT+03:00 selpahi : > I've been silent this whole time because I don't know how to best phrase > my feelings with regards to LLG in general, lojbab's continued presidency, > and Curtis' proposal(s). > > First of all, I wish to say that I am glad to hear that lojbab thinks he > is capable health-wise to continue his presidency for another year. I wish > only the best for him. That said, it is no secret that the LLG meetings > have been a bit lacking in recent years. I do not blame this on lojbab > alone; every member should feel some obligation to serve (in some way) the > organization they chose to become members of. If they don't contribute, > there is little the president can do. On the other hand, it is probably > possible to have a president who is a little bit more involved and who > finds ways to spur others into action. (But what actions are even needed?) > Unfortunately (but understandably), even if such a person were to be > found, they would probably be put off by all the bureaucracy needed to fill > and run the position. In a way, it might seem like a wasted effort, since > such a person would likely be more valuable in the BPFK were actual > language matters are being worked on. I am not surprised that there aren't > lots people waiting in line to become the next president. > > As for Curtis, it is at times not clear what the nature of his involvement > with the language is. Which language? LLG is not only about Lojban. > Most people know Curtis only via his contributions on jbovlaste where he > is (in)famous for adding large amounts of highly technical mathematical > jargon (cmavo) and similar amounts of experimental gismu. Hardly anybody > has seen him produce any Lojban (though they would really like to see him > do so). It is not clear how familiar he is with Lojban culture and history. What is > evident is that he has a knack for Legalese (some of his proposals during > the meeting were in fact phrased in a way that some had serious trouble > understanding them). Does the LLG need (even more) bureaucracy? I think > not. What LLG does need I do not know either. Word on the street has been > that LLG has not exactly been a very useful institution. > > How does LLG remain relevant, or find back to relevancy, in the eyes of > the Lojban community? > hosting, raising money for it, selling books. > > Say we find a new president, then what? There are no concrete plans or > goals that I can see. There are only these abstract officer jobs, and then > once a year the membership meets and, well, nothing happens. Or as guskant > put it: "I protest against an LLG that decides about no important subjects > but adjournment." > > During the meeting (2016/03/19) John Cowan said: "I think the time has > passed for official words, official dictionaries, or official anything > else." > > If even Cowan himself feels this way, what is there left for LLG to do? > > Curtis has voiced repeatedly his will to help the language and the > community. But is LLG really the place to serve either of those two? > Lojbanology (jboske) happens anywhere but here. The BPFK works on > definitional matters and works out under-formalized areas of the language. > LLG does not. Motivated members of the community create Lojban artworks and > enrich the culture of the language. LLG does not. Volunteers write teaching > materials and teach people through various mediums. LLG does not. > Probably LLG should solve technical issues like with hosting, publishing. Therefore I imagine on the next (next year, or technically this 2016 year) board of directors only administrators and technicians (which e.g. I am neither). > > What *does* LLG do? > I suppose it *ca'a* does nothing indeed. > If I seem overly critical of this institution, it is only because I myself > cannot give any good answers to any of these questions, and because this > sentiment is widely shared among people who only see the LLG from the > outside, so it only seems the right thing to do to carry it to the board. > If nobody else has answers, at least the board should. > > If someone came to me and asked me how they could best help out the > community, nothing would be further from my mind than telling them to > become an LLG-member. I think this alone speaks volumes. > There are several ToDo pages on the wiki. ToDo lists topics ranging from fixing pages on the wiki itself to machine translation and better learning resources https://mw.lojban.org/papri/ToDo https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_To-Do --001a114101d8a80d9a05367a3c15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2016-06-29 21:27 GMT+03:00 selpahi <selpahi@selpahi.de>= :
I've been silent this whole time because I don= 9;t know how to best phrase my feelings with regards to LLG in general, loj= bab's continued presidency, and Curtis' proposal(s).

First of all, I wish to say that I am glad to hear that lojbab thinks he is= capable health-wise to continue his presidency for another year. I wish on= ly the best for him. That said, it is no secret that the LLG meetings have = been a bit lacking in recent years. I do not blame this on lojbab alone; ev= ery member should feel some obligation to serve (in some way) the organizat= ion they chose to become members of. If they don't contribute, there is= little the president can do. On the other hand, it is probably possible to= have a president who is a little bit more involved and who finds ways to s= pur others into action. (But what actions are even needed?)
Unfortunately (but understandably), even if such a person were to be found,= they would probably be put off by all the bureaucracy needed to fill and r= un the position. In a way, it might seem like a wasted effort, since such a= person would likely be more valuable in the BPFK were actual language matt= ers are being worked on. I am not surprised that there aren't lots peop= le waiting in line to become the next president.

As for Curtis, it is at times not clear what the nature of his involvement = with the language is.

Which language? LLG i= s not only about Lojban.
=C2=A0
Most peopl= e know Curtis only via his contributions on jbovlaste where he is (in)famou= s for adding large amounts of highly technical mathematical jargon (cmavo) = and similar amounts of experimental gismu. Hardly anybody has seen him prod= uce any Lojban (though they would really like to see him do so).
It is not clear how familiar he is with Lojban culture a= nd history. What is evident is that he has a knack for Legalese (some of hi= s proposals during the meeting were in fact phrased in a way that some had = serious trouble understanding them). Does the LLG need (even more) bureaucr= acy? I think not. What LLG does need I do not know either. Word on the stre= et has been that LLG has not exactly been a very useful institution.

How does LLG remain relevant, or find back to relevancy, in the eyes of the= Lojban community?

hosting, raising mon= ey for it, selling books.
=C2=A0

Say we find a new president, then what? There are no concrete plans or goal= s that I can see. There are only these abstract officer jobs, and then once= a year the membership meets and, well, nothing happens. Or as guskant put = it: "I protest against an LLG that decides about no important subjects= but adjournment."

During the meeting (2016/03/19) John Cowan said: "I think the time has= passed for official words, official dictionaries, or official anything els= e."

If even Cowan himself feels this way, what is there left for LLG to do?

Curtis has voiced repeatedly his will to help the language and the communit= y. But is LLG really the place to serve either of those two? Lojbanology (j= boske) happens anywhere but here. The BPFK works on definitional matters an= d works out under-formalized areas of the language. LLG does not. Motivated= members of the community create Lojban artworks and enrich the culture of = the language. LLG does not. Volunteers write teaching materials and teach p= eople through various mediums. LLG does not.

Probably LLG should solve technical issues like with hosting, publish= ing.
Therefore I imagine on the next (next year, or technically t= his 2016 year) board of directors only administrators and technicians (whic= h e.g. I am neither).
=C2=A0

What *does* LLG do?
I suppose it ca'a=C2=A0= does nothing indeed.


If I seem overly critical of this institution, it is only because I myself = cannot give any good answers to any of these questions, and because this se= ntiment is widely shared among people who only see the LLG from the outside= , so it only seems the right thing to do to carry it to the board. If nobod= y else has answers, at least the board should.

If someone came to me and asked me how they could best help out the communi= ty, nothing would be further from my mind than telling them to become an LL= G-member. I think this alone speaks volumes.

There are several ToDo pages on the wiki. ToDo lists topics ranging f= rom fixing pages on the wiki itself to machine translation and better learn= ing resources
=
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