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[70.214.89.94]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 184sm14867162ywe.14.2016.07.05.10.06.03 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:06:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Riley Lynch Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <49A3D3DC-E2DA-450D-8273-C081E283A594@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 13:06:01 -0400 References: <822daa99-6878-512e-6793-0d3a5f0fd70a@selpahi.de> <51A8CA25-94D2-432B-8D01-ECCE1AD80CF0@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: To: llg-board@lojban.org X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13F69) X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [llg-board] Volunteers and qualifications for office X-BeenThere: llg-board@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-board@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1541000421565879400==" Errors-To: llg-board-bounces@lojban.org --===============1541000421565879400== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-0AD0A9AE-9BDB-4EB8-9206-55527C8E014C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Apple-Mail-0AD0A9AE-9BDB-4EB8-9206-55527C8E014C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can't respond in detail at this moment, but I want to challenge at least t= he interpretation that I said anything remotely like "we need a leader who w= ill lead us into the bright future." To the contrary, I've emphasized that t= he kind of leadership we need involves organizing around the communities' ne= eds and interests. Organizing is hard, and sometimes thankless, as you yours= elf know, doi la gleki. As for those who believe, as "anarchists" or otherwi= se, that we'll arrive at the best results without organization-- that goals t= hat require concerted effort and collective assent, as opposed to, say the f= ruits of individual genius, are likely to spontaneously self-generate -- I d= o not share their faith in general, and note that the history of this commun= ity is rife with counterexample. How many times has, "Hey, everybody, work o= n the important stuff, whatever you think that is," worked out? I understand that there are those who are inclined to view any formal approa= ch to organization as a species of coercion or exclusion. I'm not interested= in converting anybody from their deeply held beliefs, but in so far as I be= lieve that the value in lojban is not primarily or exclusively in the unders= tanding or achievements of individuals but rather in the exchanges that we m= ake amongst ourselves as a community, and that a community is better served b= y a representative body than by hazard. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 5, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Gleki Arxokuna w= rote: >=20 >=20 > 2016-07-05 18:23 GMT+03:00 Riley Martinez-Lynch : >> I agree that LLG has not been =E2=80=9Cvery useful=E2=80=9D for a long ti= me, but in saying that, I don=E2=80=99t mean that it can=E2=80=99t be useful= . To the contrary, the role that it should be filling is not filled by any o= ther entity, and probably can=E2=80=99t be. >>=20 >> For example, one vital function of LLG is to recognize BPFK and its work a= s custodian of the language. It=E2=80=99s LLG=E2=80=99s nature as a rules-bo= und institution, governed by its members, that it makes it possible for the w= ork products of BPFK to be incorporated into the norms of the community. >=20 > Note that one active IRC resident expressed their clear opinion that they p= refer anarchy. So not that LLG can be perceived negatively some think it sho= uldn't simply exist. >=20 > "LLG recognizing BPFK" for me sounds like an English proverb "claw me and I= will claw you".=20 >=20 > And another opinion (from la su'o da): why after all BPFK or its equivalen= t should be recognized by any legal entities at all? Why can't BPFK be indep= endent? Community can decide whom to listen. Some people prefer using only C= LL (first edition) and they feel happy. >=20 > Also I wouldn't like the community (primarily newcomers) to form an opinio= n that LLG is somehow hijacking Lojban having no rights over it (indeed how c= an one own a language?) and have done over the last years literally nothing t= o morally justify such hijacking? > On the other hand, a recent example is when a person wanted to join LLG mo= st likely not realizing that it's not a place where Lojban is spoken. >=20 > Personally I suggest that LLG pays more attention to=20 > 1. its goal (from the Bylaws) not limited to Lojban > 2. administrative and=20 > 3. technical issues of Lojban like that of printing books, deciding on imp= ortant software and providing hosting for it. >=20 > All other issues that sound politically like "we need a leader who will le= ad us into the bright future of transhumanism or whatever" should in my opin= ion be abandoned. > I don't think we need loud slogans. > And I do think we only need the work being done. > _______________________________________________ > llg-board mailing list > llg-board@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board --Apple-Mail-0AD0A9AE-9BDB-4EB8-9206-55527C8E014C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I can't respond in detail at this mome= nt, but I want to challenge at least the interpretation that I said anything= remotely like "we need a leader who will lead us into the bright future." T= o the contrary, I've emphasized that the kind of leadership we need involves= organizing around the communities' needs and interests. Organizing is hard,= and sometimes thankless, as you yourself know, doi la gleki. As for those w= ho believe, as "anarchists" or otherwise, that we'll arrive at the best resu= lts without organization-- that goals that require concerted effort and coll= ective assent, as opposed to, say the fruits of individual genius, are likel= y to spontaneously self-generate -- I do not share their faith in general, a= nd note that the history of this community is rife with counterexample. How m= any times has, "Hey, everybody, work on the important stuff, whatever you th= ink that is," worked out?

I understand that there a= re those who are inclined to view any formal approach to organization as a s= pecies of coercion or exclusion. I'm not interested in converting anybody fr= om their deeply held beliefs, but in so far as I believe that the value in l= ojban is not primarily or exclusively in the understanding or achievements o= f individuals but rather in the exchanges that we make amongst ourselves as a= community, and that a community is better served by a representative body t= han by hazard.

Sent from my iPhone

On= Jul 5, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2016-07-05 18:23 GMT+03:00 Riley Martinez-Lynch <= shunpiker@gmail.com>:
I agree that LLG has not been= =E2=80=9Cvery useful=E2=80=9D for a long time, but in saying that, I don=E2= =80=99t mean that it can=E2=80=99t be useful. To the contrary, the role that= it should be filling is not filled by any other entity, and probably can=E2= =80=99t be.

For example, one vital function of LLG is to recognize BPFK and its work as c= ustodian of the language. It=E2=80=99s LLG=E2=80=99s nature as a rules-bound= institution, governed by its members, that it makes it possible for the wor= k products of BPFK to be incorporated into the norms of the community.
=

Note that one active IRC resident expressed their cle= ar opinion that they prefer anarchy. So not that LLG can be perceived negati= vely some think it shouldn't simply exist.
<= br>
"LLG recognizing BPFK" for me sounds lik= e an English proverb "claw me and I will claw you". 

And another opinion (from= la su'o da): why after all BPFK or its equivalent should be recognized by a= ny legal entities at all? Why can't BPFK be independent? Community can decid= e whom to listen. Some people prefer using only CLL (first edition) and they= feel happy.

Also I wouldn't like the community (primarily newcomers) to form an op= inion that LLG is somehow hijacking Lojban having no rights over it (indeed h= ow can one own a language?) and have done over the last years literally noth= ing to morally justify such hijacking?
On th= e other hand, a recent example is when a person wanted to join LLG most like= ly not realizing that it's not a place where Lojban is spoken.

Personally I suggest= that LLG pays more attention to 
1. it= s goal (from the Bylaws) not limited to Lojban
2. administrative and 
3. technical i= ssues of Lojban like that of printing books, deciding on important software a= nd providing hosting for it.

All other issues that sound politically like "we need a= leader who will lead us into the bright future of transhumanism or whatever= " should in my opinion be abandoned.
I don't= think we need loud slogans.
And I do think w= e only need the work being done.
____________________= ___________________________
llg-board mailing listllg-board@lojban.org
ht= tp://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board
= --Apple-Mail-0AD0A9AE-9BDB-4EB8-9206-55527C8E014C-- --===============1541000421565879400== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ llg-board mailing list llg-board@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board --===============1541000421565879400==--