Received: from localhost ([::1]:39435 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1bKiQu-0001Do-NN; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 01:43:48 -0700 Received: from mail-lf0-f43.google.com ([209.85.215.43]:34183) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1bKiQr-0001De-Gw for llg-board@lojban.org; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 01:43:47 -0700 Received: by mail-lf0-f43.google.com with SMTP id h129so150251580lfh.1 for ; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 01:43:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=mJ9tj+qvCzGUk1xOuTv84PJ2YWc8jRrWLmecrilzbH0=; b=hh12nXbnCrpYjUat6MlK3rg5E2sMjN77kU8q5/qVGQngieeycHqivHWZPjgUdPQAI8 xaXxSPeo2C3rCB0IlcnXzKUSmD+1XT6wRNNE2r7tPQQdbTpC0oqeddsVSw5olnSzdOUb NrlUGQC7XZHgiWWS9mvodwpjsvv4xWWYc/T7H90E/GysqL2fHtCRHmxd9EfOJHwNpSeu 5VBEsEJjjYZlSqza0BxvMC4MBodlJmUFw/26iGfmnL20GaV79je/Z2SyFKtTydUimsIb Pw5eogXkRSGv5t3ULaOeX87KVhk1IApydBEZDf6mGatMgbLwrAIwmqRfqdSI+rgVouyu j4FQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=mJ9tj+qvCzGUk1xOuTv84PJ2YWc8jRrWLmecrilzbH0=; b=R4VBoPNO3A9pCBalbVTqq31JMAyRMDis2OoixlOORF60M0Gfx/vppziOR8wkUpM79z u0L9tKGqHlYbDfwow96/3pdrszvEtEGyvOQ/B/Pj0ny6adkPnVbuAOoGf/eB84QD8lgN FHivFNpie/rs8zIfLL3aaYUjdiM9/Eg90vMHcNYX4vS1b/yNyPcm70ZZrwwQlOWxQ1FA AwCeRiqy1Sx3XegU7sLhNkqQdUylFB93a537B1A2ZB4aZ22PrGQp5XfHG3XuFIhek1iZ +FetnPlEbyQ7VvaJ1Qb6I8fGq8/fVU2k5k3jPyIgg9BHusmzb8dZWjQBTX2IXzBREOdE zl8g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLm+SCiaSLBBJhhRTpeozzzVUM3Rn+X+0i7iJDr+7G7R95QKAatwzUwMZX1QPJbeTWrm7scE8bl4BLiJg== X-Received: by 10.25.148.200 with SMTP id w191mr4514060lfd.2.1467794617950; Wed, 06 Jul 2016 01:43:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.24.164 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Jul 2016 01:42:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <49A3D3DC-E2DA-450D-8273-C081E283A594@gmail.com> References: <822daa99-6878-512e-6793-0d3a5f0fd70a@selpahi.de> <51A8CA25-94D2-432B-8D01-ECCE1AD80CF0@gmail.com> <49A3D3DC-E2DA-450D-8273-C081E283A594@gmail.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 11:42:55 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-board@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [llg-board] Volunteers and qualifications for office X-BeenThere: llg-board@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-board@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2691869173820370414==" Errors-To: llg-board-bounces@lojban.org --===============2691869173820370414== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11402e62ce661d0536f390be --001a11402e62ce661d0536f390be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2016-07-05 20:06 GMT+03:00 Riley Lynch : > I can't respond in detail at this moment, but I want to challenge at leas= t > the interpretation that I said anything remotely like "we need a leader w= ho > will lead us into the bright future." To the contrary, I've emphasized th= at > the kind of leadership we need involves organizing around the communities= ' > needs and interests. Organizing is hard, and sometimes thankless, as you > yourself know, doi la gleki. As for those who believe, as "anarchists" or > otherwise, that we'll arrive at the best results without organization-- > that goals that require concerted effort and collective assent, as oppose= d > to, say the fruits of individual genius, are likely to spontaneously > self-generate -- I do not share their faith in general, and note that the > history of this community is rife with counterexample. How many times has= , > "Hey, everybody, work on the important stuff, whatever you think that is,= " > worked out? > > I understand that there are those who are inclined to view any formal > approach to organization as a species of coercion or exclusion. I'm not > interested in converting anybody from their deeply held beliefs, but in s= o > far as I believe that the value in lojban is not primarily or exclusively > in the understanding or achievements of individuals but rather in the > exchanges that we make amongst ourselves as a community, and that a > community is better served by a representative body than by hazard. > > Sent from my iPhone > IMO, topic shifted. Too few people who can reply here. I suggest stopping discussing LLG goals and rationale behind its existence and resume this conversation during the next llg-members meeting. What do we have now? 1. Curtis agreed to become a Vice-President. 2. No one objected to Riley's proposal to still search for more volunteers. 3. Karen agreed to be a backup for a member residing in Virginia. Do we need to discuss anything else? > On Jul 5, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: > > > 2016-07-05 18:23 GMT+03:00 Riley Martinez-Lynch : > >> I agree that LLG has not been =E2=80=9Cvery useful=E2=80=9D for a long t= ime, but in >> saying that, I don=E2=80=99t mean that it can=E2=80=99t be useful. To th= e contrary, the >> role that it should be filling is not filled by any other entity, and >> probably can=E2=80=99t be. >> >> For example, one vital function of LLG is to recognize BPFK and its work >> as custodian of the language. It=E2=80=99s LLG=E2=80=99s nature as a rul= es-bound >> institution, governed by its members, that it makes it possible for the >> work products of BPFK to be incorporated into the norms of the community= . >> > > Note that one active IRC resident expressed their clear opinion that they > prefer anarchy. So not that LLG can be perceived negatively some think it > shouldn't simply exist. > > "LLG recognizing BPFK" for me sounds like an English proverb "claw me and > I will claw you". > > And another opinion (from la su'o da): why after all BPFK or its > equivalent should be recognized by any legal entities at all? Why can't > BPFK be independent? Community can decide whom to listen. Some people > prefer using only CLL (first edition) and they feel happy. > > Also I wouldn't like the community (primarily newcomers) to form an > opinion that LLG is somehow hijacking Lojban having no rights over it > (indeed how can one own a language?) and have done over the last years > literally nothing to morally justify such hijacking? > On the other hand, a recent example is when a person wanted to join LLG > most likely not realizing that it's not a place where Lojban is spoken. > > Personally I suggest that LLG pays more attention to > 1. its goal (from the Bylaws) not limited to Lojban > 2. administrative and > 3. technical issues of Lojban like that of printing books, deciding on > important software and providing hosting for it. > > All other issues that sound politically like "we need a leader who will > lead us into the bright future of transhumanism or whatever" should in my > opinion be abandoned. > I don't think we need loud slogans. > And I do think we only need the work being done. > > _______________________________________________ > llg-board mailing list > llg-board@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board > > > _______________________________________________ > llg-board mailing list > llg-board@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board > > --001a11402e62ce661d0536f390be Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= 2016-07-05 20:06 GMT+03:00 Riley Lynch <shunpiker@gmail.com>:
I can't re= spond in detail at this moment, but I want to challenge at least the interp= retation that I said anything remotely like "we need a leader who will= lead us into the bright future." To the contrary, I've emphasized= that the kind of leadership we need involves organizing around the communi= ties' needs and interests. Organizing is hard, and sometimes thankless,= as you yourself know, doi la gleki. As for those who believe, as "ana= rchists" or otherwise, that we'll arrive at the best results witho= ut organization-- that goals that require concerted effort and collective a= ssent, as opposed to, say the fruits of individual genius, are likely to sp= ontaneously self-generate -- I do not share their faith in general, and not= e that the history of this community is rife with counterexample. How many = times has, "Hey, everybody, work on the important stuff, whatever you = think that is," worked out?

I understand that= there are those who are inclined to view any formal approach to organizati= on as a species of coercion or exclusion. I'm not interested in convert= ing anybody from their deeply held beliefs, but in so far as I believe that= the value in lojban is not primarily or exclusively in the understanding o= r achievements of individuals but rather in the exchanges that we make amon= gst ourselves as a community, and that a community is better served by a re= presentative body than by hazard.

Sent from my iPhone

IMO, topic shifted.
Too few people who can reply here.
I suggest stopping discussi= ng LLG goals and rationale behind its existence and resume this conversatio= n during the next llg-members meeting.

What do we = have now?
1. Curtis agreed to become a Vice-President.
<= div>2. No one objected to Riley's proposal to still search for more vol= unteers.
3. Karen agreed to be a backup for a member residing in = Virginia.

Do we need to discuss anything else?



On Jul 5, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Gleki Ar= xokuna <= gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2016-07-05 18:23 GMT+03:00 Riley Martinez-Lynch <shunpiker@gm= ail.com>:
I agree that= LLG has not been =E2=80=9Cvery useful=E2=80=9D for a long time, but in say= ing that, I don=E2=80=99t mean that it can=E2=80=99t be useful. To the cont= rary, the role that it should be filling is not filled by any other entity,= and probably can=E2=80=99t be.

For example, one vital function of LLG is to recognize BPFK and its work as= custodian of the language. It=E2=80=99s LLG=E2=80=99s nature as a rules-bo= und institution, governed by its members, that it makes it possible for the= work products of BPFK to be incorporated into the norms of the community.<= /div>

Note that one active IRC resident expressed the= ir clear opinion that they prefer anarchy. So not that LLG can be perceived= negatively some think it shouldn't simply exist.

"LLG recognizing BPFK&= quot; for me sounds like an English proverb "claw me and I will claw y= ou".=C2=A0

And another opinion (from la su'o da): why after all BPFK or = its equivalent should be recognized by any legal entities at all? Why can&#= 39;t BPFK be independent? Community can decide whom to listen. Some people = prefer using only CLL (first edition) and they feel happy.

Also I wouldn't l= ike the community (primarily newcomers) to form an opinion that LLG is some= how hijacking Lojban having no rights over it (indeed how can one own a lan= guage?) and have done over the last years literally nothing to morally just= ify such hijacking?
On the other hand, a re= cent example is when a person wanted to join LLG most likely not realizing = that it's not a place where Lojban is spoken.

Personally I suggest that LLG p= ays more attention to=C2=A0
1. its goal (fr= om the Bylaws) not limited to Lojban
2. adm= inistrative and=C2=A0
3. technical issues o= f Lojban like that of printing books, deciding on important software and pr= oviding hosting for it.

All other issues that sound politically like "we nee= d a leader who will lead us into the bright future of transhumanism or what= ever" should in my opinion be abandoned.
I don't think we need loud slogans.
= And I do think we only need the work being done.
_______= ________________________________________
l= lg-board mailing list
llg-board@lojban.org
http://m= ail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board

_______________________________________________
llg-board mailing list
llg-board@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board


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