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([2601:5c0:c001:4ec0:4835:9458:a11e:6e88]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b66sm820757qkj.39.2016.07.16.21.29.58 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 16 Jul 2016 21:29:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <822daa99-6878-512e-6793-0d3a5f0fd70a@selpahi.de> <51A8CA25-94D2-432B-8D01-ECCE1AD80CF0@gmail.com> <49A3D3DC-E2DA-450D-8273-C081E283A594@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Karen Stein Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 00:29:57 -0400 To: llg-board@lojban.org Message-ID: X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [llg-board] Volunteers and qualifications for office X-BeenThere: llg-board@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-board@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8189793622392136111==" Errors-To: llg-board-bounces@lojban.org --===============8189793622392136111== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----B0OQJWH56TDVD1GDRVVFU1V9F12QKZ" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ------B0OQJWH56TDVD1GDRVVFU1V9F12QKZ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I am sorry it has taken me a while to write this. I thought I'd already said something, but my email program shows no such email in its history. As I have been recovering from eye surgery and was on particularly strong pain medication this may be why I thought I'd sent something I did not. I am offering myself as a second option for Vice President. My rationale has nothing to do with my feelings about the qualifications Curtis has. It stems from my own history with, and interest in LLG. I also know that lojbab and I can both work together and stand up to each other if we disagree. .karis. On July 6, 2016 4:42:55 AM EDT, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >2016-07-05 20:06 GMT+03:00 Riley Lynch : > >> I can't respond in detail at this moment, but I want to challenge at >least >> the interpretation that I said anything remotely like "we need a >leader who >> will lead us into the bright future." To the contrary, I've >emphasized that >> the kind of leadership we need involves organizing around the >communities' >> needs and interests. Organizing is hard, and sometimes thankless, as >you >> yourself know, doi la gleki. As for those who believe, as >"anarchists" or >> otherwise, that we'll arrive at the best results without >organization-- >> that goals that require concerted effort and collective assent, as >opposed >> to, say the fruits of individual genius, are likely to spontaneously >> self-generate -- I do not share their faith in general, and note that >the >> history of this community is rife with counterexample. How many times >has, >> "Hey, everybody, work on the important stuff, whatever you think that >is," >> worked out? >> >> I understand that there are those who are inclined to view any formal >> approach to organization as a species of coercion or exclusion. I'm >not >> interested in converting anybody from their deeply held beliefs, but >in so >> far as I believe that the value in lojban is not primarily or >exclusively >> in the understanding or achievements of individuals but rather in the >> exchanges that we make amongst ourselves as a community, and that a >> community is better served by a representative body than by hazard. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > >IMO, topic shifted. >Too few people who can reply here. >I suggest stopping discussing LLG goals and rationale behind its >existence >and resume this conversation during the next llg-members meeting. > >What do we have now? >1. Curtis agreed to become a Vice-President. >2. No one objected to Riley's proposal to still search for more >volunteers. >3. Karen agreed to be a backup for a member residing in Virginia. > >Do we need to discuss anything else? > > > >> On Jul 5, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Gleki Arxokuna > >> wrote: >> >> >> 2016-07-05 18:23 GMT+03:00 Riley Martinez-Lynch >: >> >>> I agree that LLG has not been “very useful” for a long time, but in >>> saying that, I don’t mean that it can’t be useful. To the contrary, >the >>> role that it should be filling is not filled by any other entity, >and >>> probably can’t be. >>> >>> For example, one vital function of LLG is to recognize BPFK and its >work >>> as custodian of the language. It’s LLG’s nature as a rules-bound >>> institution, governed by its members, that it makes it possible for >the >>> work products of BPFK to be incorporated into the norms of the >community. >>> >> >> Note that one active IRC resident expressed their clear opinion that >they >> prefer anarchy. So not that LLG can be perceived negatively some >think it >> shouldn't simply exist. >> >> "LLG recognizing BPFK" for me sounds like an English proverb "claw me >and >> I will claw you". >> >> And another opinion (from la su'o da): why after all BPFK or its >> equivalent should be recognized by any legal entities at all? Why >can't >> BPFK be independent? Community can decide whom to listen. Some people >> prefer using only CLL (first edition) and they feel happy. >> >> Also I wouldn't like the community (primarily newcomers) to form an >> opinion that LLG is somehow hijacking Lojban having no rights over it >> (indeed how can one own a language?) and have done over the last >years >> literally nothing to morally justify such hijacking? >> On the other hand, a recent example is when a person wanted to join >LLG >> most likely not realizing that it's not a place where Lojban is >spoken. >> >> Personally I suggest that LLG pays more attention to >> 1. its goal (from the Bylaws) not limited to Lojban >> 2. administrative and >> 3. technical issues of Lojban like that of printing books, deciding >on >> important software and providing hosting for it. >> >> All other issues that sound politically like "we need a leader who >will >> lead us into the bright future of transhumanism or whatever" should >in my >> opinion be abandoned. >> I don't think we need loud slogans. >> And I do think we only need the work being done. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> llg-board mailing list >> llg-board@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> llg-board mailing list >> llg-board@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >llg-board mailing list >llg-board@lojban.org >http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board -- Karen Stein -- ------B0OQJWH56TDVD1GDRVVFU1V9F12QKZ Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am sorry it has taken me a while to write this. I thought I'd already said something, but my email program shows no such email in its history. As I have been recovering from eye surgery and was on particularly strong pain medication this may be why I thought I'd sent something I did not.

I am offering myself as a second option for Vice President. My rationale has nothing to do with my feelings about the qualifications Curtis has. It stems from my own history with, and interest in LLG. I also know that lojbab and I can both work together and stand up to each other if we disagree.

.karis.

On July 6, 2016 4:42:55 AM EDT, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

2016-07-05 20:06 GMT+03:00 Riley Lynch <shunpiker@gmail.com>:
I can't respond in detail at this moment, but I want to challenge at least the interpretation that I said anything remotely like "we need a leader who will lead us into the bright future." To the contrary, I've emphasized that the kind of leadership we need involves organizing around the communities' needs and interests. Organizing is hard, and sometimes thankless, as you yourself know, doi la gleki. As for those who believe, as "anarchists" or otherwise, that we'll arrive at the best results without organization-- that goals that require concerted effort and collective assent, as opposed to, say the fruits of individual genius, are likely to spontaneously self-generate -- I do not share their faith in general, and note that the history of this community is rife with counterexample. How many times has, "Hey, everybody, work on the important stuff, whatever you think that is," worked out?

I understand that there are those who are inclined to view any formal approach to organization as a species of coercion or exclusion. I'm not interested in converting anybody from their deeply held beliefs, but in so far as I believe that the value in lojban is not primarily or exclusively in the understanding or achievements of individuals but rather in the exchanges that we make amongst ourselves as a community, and that a community is better served by a representative body than by hazard.

Sent from my iPhone

IMO, topic shifted.
Too few people who can reply here.
I suggest stopping discussing LLG goals and rationale behind its existence and resume this conversation during the next llg-members meeting.

What do we have now?
1. Curtis agreed to become a Vice-President.
2. No one objected to Riley's proposal to still search for more volunteers.
3. Karen agreed to be a backup for a member residing in Virginia.

Do we need to discuss anything else?



On Jul 5, 2016, at 12:17 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2016-07-05 18:23 GMT+03:00 Riley Martinez-Lynch <shunpiker@gmail.com>:
I agree that LLG has not been “very useful” for a long time, but in saying that, I don’t mean that it can’t be useful. To the contrary, the role that it should be filling is not filled by any other entity, and probably can’t be.

For example, one vital function of LLG is to recognize BPFK and its work as custodian of the language. It’s LLG’s nature as a rules-bound institution, governed by its members, that it makes it possible for the work products of BPFK to be incorporated into the norms of the community.

Note that one active IRC resident expressed their clear opinion that they prefer anarchy. So not that LLG can be perceived negatively some think it shouldn't simply exist.

"LLG recognizing BPFK" for me sounds like an English proverb "claw me and I will claw you". 

And another opinion (from la su'o da): why after all BPFK or its equivalent should be recognized by any legal entities at all? Why can't BPFK be independent? Community can decide whom to listen. Some people prefer using only CLL (first edition) and they feel happy.

Also I wouldn't like the community (primarily newcomers) to form an opinion that LLG is somehow hijacking Lojban having no rights over it (indeed how can one own a language?) and have done over the last years literally nothing to morally justify such hijacking?
On the other hand, a recent example is when a person wanted to join LLG most likely not realizing that it's not a place where Lojban is spoken.

Personally I suggest that LLG pays more attention to 
1. its goal (from the Bylaws) not limited to Lojban
2. administrative and 
3. technical issues of Lojban like that of printing books, deciding on important software and providing hosting for it.

All other issues that sound politically like "we need a leader who will lead us into the bright future of transhumanism or whatever" should in my opinion be abandoned.
I don't think we need loud slogans.
And I do think we only need the work being done.
_______________________________________________
llg-board mailing list
llg-board@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board

_______________________________________________
llg-board mailing list
llg-board@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board



llg-board mailing list
llg-board@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board

-- Karen Stein -- ------B0OQJWH56TDVD1GDRVVFU1V9F12QKZ-- --===============8189793622392136111== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ llg-board mailing list llg-board@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-board --===============8189793622392136111==--