From matt.mattarn@gmail.com Fri Dec 23 08:45:52 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list llg-board); Fri, 23 Dec 2005 08:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.197]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Epq38-0001z9-20 for llg-board@lojban.org; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 08:45:50 -0800 Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z3so637266nzf for ; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 08:45:44 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=CoI5vhx03qg0ButzC3C1Y2FxKgvfRel1o3DL6VsL74XJKJ/QWdkCNQT6M25/kr2dNObOajhMJ+Ltanl7nLrtsGJukqRafHLKqBop093tfoC6ljwrNqG+UjmDj12UZFnlnQwluAU6LIro2EBofk5qRcEFmOuwj8gWTBggPn1gfwI= Received: by 10.65.232.11 with SMTP id j11mr1636331qbr; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 08:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.105.20 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 08:45:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:45:44 -0500 From: Matt Arnold To: llg-board@lojban.org Subject: [llg-board] Re: Two organizations In-Reply-To: <43AB97DF.8030703@lojban.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20051219070640.GB3514@ccil.org> <43AB97DF.8030703@lojban.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 33 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: llg-board-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: llg-board-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: llg-board@lojban.org X-list: llg-board The mailing list archives are on the lojban.org domain, but a domain-limited google search of the main words in the thread titles didn't turn up anything. I'll continue looking later. I would like very much to hear those proposals. In the meantime I'd like to bring up a proposal of my own. I've been giving it a lot of thought. The members have to have something to do. Every group has to have something they are coming together for. No group is just a mutual interest; if it were, we already have that group, called the Lojban community. A social organization only exists when those with a mutual interest come together for a mutual activity. I know from personal experience, when no activities exist under the aegis of a group, the group is de-facto nonexistent. The activity can't just be speaking Lojban to each other. You don't need to pay a membership fee to do that. We already have lists and IRC and phone groups for that. Paying for your name to be on a specious "membership" list would not give them more access to that than they had before. On the way back from Logfest my friend Bill said in order to thrive, Lojban needs a franchise, like Klingon has Star Trek. I couldn't agree more. My personal reason for learning Lojban has always been in the hope of creating that franchise. (Don't get me wrong, it doesn't need television or hollywood or book publishers or any other gatekeepers or money. Orions Arm ( http://www.orionsarm.com/ ) doesn't have that and look how far they've come. Well, I came up with an idea that I think is pretty good. What is associated with language? Nations. People who learn a new language usually do so in order to visit or live or work in another nation. I propose an imaginary Lojban-speaking nation, and we'll offer "citizenship." I'll design some beautiful faux immigration paperwork, a passport, a naturalization certificate and everything. It achieves the goal of seeming official, while simultaneously not interfering with business aspect of the LLG. It taps into the mystique while requiring no prerequisite qualifications at all. An imaginary physical presence in this land is conferred (and sustained) by making donations to the LLG. No one actually needs to actively participate, or even actually learn Lojban, if they only wish to have a nominal citizenship and leave it at that. Citizens can shape the culture, landscape and governmental system by playing the game of Nomic ( http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/nomic.htm ) in Lojban on the Wiki. The way it works is, a resident of Lojbanistan (or whatever its name becomes) has the power to open up a terminal in midair and type Lojban into it (on the Wiki). This is the language of an ancient civilization that uploaded themselves into computers and sleep solipsistically beneath the sea. They created a logical language that hacks into root access in the fabric of reality. Create a description in Lojban of a building / species of animal / acre of landscape / imaginary character who lives there. Stone giants who stride the land as custodians of the ancients will instantly transform the landscape to your description; so long as it doesn't contradict a previous statement. A travelogue and a mythos will form through these descriptions in the same shape as a roleplaying sourcebook. But everything that has an effect must be spoken in correct Lojban, or a player with poor Lojban skills must persuade someone else to say it for him. I and some other Lojbanists with art skills will illustrate it and the map image will grow larger and larger on the web. The API for Google Maps is open, so maybe somebody will hack together a Google Maps hack just like the one that shows the surface of the moon. -epkat On 12/23/05, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > > > I need a lot more information. What would be done with the money? > > Would we pay people to work on the BFPK? What purpose would the > > informal organization serve that LLG does not already serve? With this > > very vague and non-detailed description it seems totally redundant so > > far. > > This thing is not a new idea. Those who can find the members-list > archive should look back to some threads on 30 Jun 2003 - 1 July 2003, > Threads were entitled "So. To fix things" "Two proposals, then" "Jbogri > & Lojbangirz", "Withdrawal of a not yet discussed motion". Maybe a > dozen or two messages in total, though a couple were long. The net > result of this was a sense that there needed to be two organizations, > and I think Matt will find all kinds of interesting reasons discussed, > even though we ended up with two proposals at loggerheads. > > I know that I ended up having an idea to resolve things that I thought > could satisfy everyone, which I was going to take up with And outside > the meeting, but it never happened (or at least I can't find any emails > to that effect). The membership set up an official project to discuss > the matter and formulate a proposal, but like several other projects > that were voted on in early July, they never made it onto the projects > page, and with no reminders, we drifted on to other matters. And then > And Rosta dropped out of contact for a long time, and then I ceased to > be President. > > I suggest that the "project" finally be established - and we can get And > involved if he wants to be. It would be useful if someone is going to > set up a project page (I am not volunteering) if they link to all the > relevant messages, and if they aren't open to non-members because the > member-list-archives are restricted, the messages may need to be copied > and/or edited together instead of linked. > > I have NOT reread these emails just now, and so cannot hope to say what > my ideas were to resolve the differences without considerable more > thought. I will wait and see what others reviewing the messages have to > say before trying to push on. But I really think that it needs to be a > non-Board matter until a new proposal gets created, and we have the > "project" mechanism to handle it. > > lojbab > > > >