From matt.mattarn@gmail.com Fri Aug 03 10:01:25 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list llg-board); Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from el-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.162.176]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IH0WZ-00076P-S3 for llg-board@lojban.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:01:21 -0700 Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j27so140441elf for ; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:01:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Vs+2lvDxeJEnx0uAmw4TG+zTJ5dVASqjqx7iK3DWIsEYokN+RKrJtOlh0gzQvnTEfpiInPbCSLI1v2tqIjQgb6YYSE9sJYnj9uAZm3HdfogRyib66ho1pn98BTjasVJCUq+RlzieDvPKRVnUOt71ZbZujG1vv5SJWaDTPcKHPDM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=uC4xbdqIoh4MmR8aVkqqwP2QxZrbVwOqOIznvyDDqiGhXAZOFUUDpXP+FD9ZltG9gm475Hoo9MKkKQl+FTy3fwe5PXE4HzJalfa1FccgmDg3VeGxtChg2DhxZF+N/4uSA/iuhEgnI1Lna+ny4pE7HLqjftwJpeXi1teRK3GgZo0= Received: by 10.78.123.5 with SMTP id v5mr871039huc.1186160473242; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.118.16 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:01:13 -0400 From: "Matt Arnold" To: llg-board@lojban.org Subject: [llg-board] Re: Translating "What Is Lojban?" Into Hindi In-Reply-To: <46B35DC1.1070304@lojban.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070802203248.GI18057@nvg.org> <20070803001716.GR12963@miranda.org> <46B35DC1.1070304@lojban.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 316 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: llg-board-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: llg-board-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: llg-board@lojban.org X-list: llg-board Thanks, Lojbab. This is a lot of info that I didn't have. In my view, it is a good reason not to pursue this project at this time. The membership meeting you refer to can be held online, can it not? -Eppcott On 8/3/07, Robert LeChevalier wrote: > Matt Arnold wrote: > > I respect that point of view, and you could be right in each point. > > Were the board to reject this expenditure, I would understand. > > > > It seems inappropriate to me for the learning materials of a > > culturally-neutral language to exist only in one of the six source > > languages (and a smattering of Spanish). > > and Esperanto, and Russian, and probably a couple other smatterings. I > think that there is more in Russian than any of the others. > > > Is it fair to say that ever > > since its inception, the Lojban community as a whole has looked > > forward the day that they would see that change? > > I'm not sure. > > > The reason I have pursued Hindi is that it's the only one which I see > > as possible. I will be the first person to be overjoyed if you show me > > that I'm wrong in this, but we have a choice between this language or > > nothing. India has a reputation for inexpensive high-quality > > outsourcing of white-collar labor, whereas the other source languages > > only have blue-collar factory outsourcing at best. Ironically, the > > very same grasp of English with which they can do the translation > > makes them the most likely to read the original. > > If the object is to get language support in some other language - ANY > language - I would suggest that we look to those languages where we DO > have a small community of speakers, and people with some skill in the > language who can supervise the hiring, spending, and quality of work. > And they should be languages where we can provide follow-up support. > "What is Lojban" is after all is a gussied up version of our advertising > brochure. If they can't learn the language once they are interested, > what is the point? And translating CLL, the gismu, and cmavo lists is a > much bigger job. > > The language most suitable under these terms, which is probably not too > expensive, is Russian. We've got people in Russia who might be able to > manage the project for us, and deliver results if we are paying for > results. We have a professional translator (Yevgenie) who can serve as > quality control, not that I think our Russian Lojbanist colleagues would > cheat us. We also have a draft gismu list (done by Yevgenie) and other > materials in the language - for a while there was even a > Russian-language web site and mailing list (though these may now be > moribund). > > After Russian, I would consider Chinese to be the language of priority. > It is harder to manage and support, but again, we have a few > community members who are Chinese who could help us figure out how. We > don't have that for Hindi. Now mind you, the fact that we have almost > totally ignored the Hindi community should raise the priority. But I > don't think we are robust enough to follow through. > > I also think that we should get prices for a translation into Spanish > and French and German because again we much more capability to support > people in those languages. And we shouldn't forget Esperanto, which is > the non-English language that we most frequently get queries in - again > a language where we have some translated materials. > > (I'd include Norwegian or one of the other Scandinavian languages, but I > think we had this discussion before, and Arnt or someone else basically > said that anyone who would be interested in learning Lojban can probably > already read materials in English.) > > > Whether we do this translation or do something else, the bottom line > > is to do *something* to fulfill our bylaws. My plan for what happens > > next is simple: during our terms of office, this organization should > > pursue its mission. > > While I understand your argument, I think that until the byfy finishes > its work, it may be premature, because the followon teaching materials > won't be translatable when they are subject to revision. Not that it > wouldn't be good to promote the language before then, but I don't think > we have a good idea what our grand plan is for when byfy is done. > > I also see an economic argument being omitted. > > We seem to be relative flush in cash, but that is an illusion. Remember > that a good deal of that is unfulfilled obligations to people who bought > JL subscriptions. No one has yet actually DONE something about this, > though we've had a few people agree to take it on at various times. > > Most of the money will merely cover balances for other members who could > in theory ask for their money back - indeed, I expect to ask for most of > my balance back rather soon since my kid is starting college next month > and costs will exceed $20K per year. I don't think it is invalid for us > to spend this money to promote the language - that is in fact why I > asked for people to contribute, but that non-donated money has the > implied obligation to pay it back in goods or funds, so we can't spend > it on things that don't eventually generate income. Spending on making > materials available in a language for which we do not have support and a > marketing capability is not going to generate the money to replenish the > accounts. > > I think that before the board undertakes any significant new > responsibility to "fulfill our bylaws" in a way that we have not done > before, and one which will commit a lot of our funds, I think it should > be discussed at a members meeting. If the members want the Board to > start new initiatives, then fine. I suspect that the members' priority, > as for the last 15 years, will be byfy and a finalized baseline followed > by publishing a dictionary, and *only* then starting new marketing > efforts. > > If the members do want such an effort, I think we need to overtly > advertise seeking donations to cover some or all of the costs, rather > than assuming that the money in the bank is free to be spent. We could > also finally implement the paid "contributing membership" idea that was > long authorized. That would give us a budget for continued language > promotional efforts, rather than spending it merely because we've > managed after many years to accumulate a large chunk. > > And since we need a members meeting in order to even HAVE terms of > office, I move that the topic be added to new business for the needed > meeting. > > > Any board member opposing this translation is > > obligated to provide their own alternative for the Logical Language > > Group to pursue its mission with these funds in some other way. > > See my note above on the funds. They aren't really free to be spent on > anything we feel like. I think we are no longer technically bankrupt > (having more obligations than funds), but we are hardly flush with > excess cash either. We've only approximately reached the break-even > point on CLL, which was somewhere between 400 and 500 copies sold. > > lojbab > > > >