From cowan@ccil.org Tue Oct 06 14:09:43 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list llg-board); Tue, 06 Oct 2009 14:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org ([192.190.237.11]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MvHHu-0000xz-EJ for llg-board@lojban.org; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 14:09:42 -0700 Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MvHHf-0001tp-Nt; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:09:23 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:09:23 -0400 To: Arnt Richard Johansen Cc: llg-board@lojban.org, John Cowan Subject: [llg-board] Re: "Community edited version" of CLL uploaded to the wiki Message-ID: <20091006210923.GA11976@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20091004134024.GA3835@nvg.org> <4AC8C7F4.4060002@lojban.org> <20091004170556.GC3835@nvg.org> <20091004172217.GD3835@nvg.org> <20091004193709.GA21532@mercury.ccil.org> <4AC9825E.5070703@lojban.org> <20091005222157.GI18623@mercury.ccil.org> <20091006193734.GL3835@nvg.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20091006193734.GL3835@nvg.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan X-archive-position: 583 X-Approved-By: arj@nvg.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: llg-board-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: llg-board-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: cowan@ccil.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: llg-board@lojban.org X-list: llg-board Arnt Richard Johansen scripsit: > I'm still angry because they (for it now seems that it is a group > effort, and that remod may not even be the one spearheading it) started > merging the errata without asking for permission, distributed the > updated CLL without asking for permission, and persist in not asking > for permission, even after being told both by Robin and myself that > that is what they need to do. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about this, but I absolutely disagree that the actions of the CE group (donri, cizgrmanti, remod, possibly others) are outside the scope of the book license, given the change which I have asked for and gotten agreement on: that the connection between the changes to the online HTML and the physical book be pointed out. I consider that that constitutes the sort of clear marking of what has changed that is required by the license, and that no item-by-item diff need be published (they do exist online, however, for public examination at github). I am not a lawyer, so this is not legal advice; it is, however, opinion informed by many discussions with lawyers and the product of someone that grew up in a lawin' family (see .sig). > 1) Have the copyright of the CE assigned to us. I don't know if the > changes that have been made are actually copyrightable, but if they > are, and it doesn't belong to us, we do not have the legal right to > do any of the following: The changes are not, again in my non-lawyer but legally informed judgment, sufficient to rise to the level of copyrightability, or to the creation of a derivative work (as would be the case, for example, if a Loglan edition of the book was created). Since the LLG holds the original copyright by assignment from me, it holds the copyright on the CE as well. The CE should say so, but if it does not, there is no effect on the copyright. > 2) Grant permission to distribute the CED under the same licence as > any other CLL. That is to say, using the book license? Sounds good to me. I note that the current online HTML doesn't have any such license attached to it (it should). > 3) Save the CE for use as the basis of the future 2nd ed. of CLL. This also sounds good to me. > (I share Bob's concern that substantive changes in the language may have > been inserted, either accidentally or maliciously. But I'm convinced > that public scrutiny will reveal any such changes, and in any case, > the book carries a note that it is not the real thing.) Anyone can examine and reconstruct, using standard automated tools, exactly what was done, using the git archive at http://github.com/dag/cll . > To take care of 1), we should begin by making a reasonable effort to > contact everyone involved with the project. Note the IRC nicks above. -- The first thing you learn in a lawin' family John Cowan is that there ain't no definite answers cowan@ccil.org to anything. --Calpurnia in To Kill A Mockingbird