Received: from localhost ([::1]:33894 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YAMUJ-0003eO-Oc; Sun, 11 Jan 2015 09:39:43 -0800 Received: from mail-wg0-f47.google.com ([74.125.82.47]:58305) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YAMUG-0003eF-Oa for llg-members@lojban.org; Sun, 11 Jan 2015 09:39:41 -0800 Received: by mail-wg0-f47.google.com with SMTP id n12so15777826wgh.6 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2015 09:39:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=kGhhbOSXXf4/LXz2V4UiBjgDrZiq48Z/HoK+V3kRHng=; b=aM1t5mtXrcA3jboMaP9DwlOcSHMws35s/Dzw/8yqwhsz+GbwEjMbhOAGG52YGO6g0e 2Kiljl7i05YhEIaOqxQt4WvEhgmgV7vR9RTZq34aqb5GCM+O1ExVjbacRs4wG+XAXANi 0RiV0k0lKxKMgJ4JHfsUdmIXojfQ+kWnx7dg0NWsKBqeiRH3Dh3eaw/ulWTNZv7LLz3g 2eC/vm58FCPRj7TfE1MVUXYnE2z4YqpWF7o1qKt2i+uvIb+4GcJFOxIW+JbDqFQha17T gLQdgNhzNDaYZHd1Wpf5+Lub1r/tV1bfEl2C6z2AeB2FyT0JGiMeyFUuflOs+ch9BRk4 oiMg== X-Received: by 10.180.7.201 with SMTP id l9mr22852501wia.80.1420997974174; Sun, 11 Jan 2015 09:39:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.86.200 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jan 2015 09:39:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <54B2A1F6.5090105@lojban.org> References: <54B2A1F6.5090105@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 20:39:13 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.7 X-Spam_score_int: 7 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: I will continue in this thread so that members can prepare more questions and replies. 2015-01-11 19:13 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG < : > So the community needs to decide how to spend the additional money, > including publishing a printed dictionary, perhaps a revision of the > Nicholas/Turner textbook, and the next edition of CLL, which will likely > incorporate some changes to the language, as well possibly supporting > additional LogFests, and perhaps paying someone to manage things as Ali > proposed a few weeks ago. If Robin completely drops out, we may also need > to start paying for web-hosting and we may need to hire people to make a > new web site work. > [...] Content analysis details: (0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: lojban.org] 2.7 DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL RBL: Envelope sender listed in dnsbl.ahbl.org [listed in gmail.com.rhsbl.ahbl.org. IN] [A] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [74.125.82.47 listed in wl.mailspike.net] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (gleki.is.my.name[at]gmail.com) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders Subject: Re: [Llg-members] January 18 2015 IRC meeting logs X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9110389009510505841==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============9110389009510505841== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044288327a32aa050c63dfc4 --f46d044288327a32aa050c63dfc4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I will continue in this thread so that members can prepare more questions and replies. 2015-01-11 19:13 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG < lojbab@lojban.org>: > So the community needs to decide how to spend the additional money, > including publishing a printed dictionary, perhaps a revision of the > Nicholas/Turner textbook, and the next edition of CLL, which will likely > incorporate some changes to the language, as well possibly supporting > additional LogFests, and perhaps paying someone to manage things as Ali > proposed a few weeks ago. If Robin completely drops out, we may also need > to start paying for web-hosting and we may need to hire people to make a > new web site work. > I would be more concerned with the hosting. If you lose the website you lose a major portion of income from selling CLL. So here is my list in order of priority: 1. So the top priority for me is CLL, version 1.1. 2. The next must be the hosting in case ma'a lose the current one. Other issues depend on having a website. That's why it's important. Can we know for sure if/when Robin drops lojban.org support? If this is for sure we should start preparations for migration immediately! 3. After that I'd prefer spending money on Ali's project manager position provided that the manager not just collects opinions but integrates crucial aspects of former and current activity into one place (probably by putting them into a wiki or onto an issues tracker), documents issues related to relations with newcomers and contacts LLG members and BPFK activists (e.g. "What learning resources can you recommend?", "How to translate this or that...?"). E.g. if a person enters #ckule IRC chat, says "Hello" and nobody replies in 20 minutes then this is a problem to document. 4.1. Lower than that I'd put spending money on writing a new version of jbovlaste. There are many proposals there but here is one: https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/131 4.2. With the equal priority I'd pay for getting a better glosser-RuleBasedMachineTranslator of Lojban to natural languages (better than jbofi'e glosser) with case and conjugation handling (using English as a working example). Converting from left-branching to right-branching of clauses is also a must since this is how some Asian languages work. 99.1. Robin Turner's tutorial. Actually I won't even bother upgrading it if once wants to be fair. How many people managed to reach fluency in Lojban using it? Many people prefer CLL to L4B even if by design CLL is not a tutorial. I highly doubt selling L4B even if upgraded to post-xorlo will be beneficial for the language itself. The large portion of le lojbo cecmu are people talking via the internet. And L4B teaches a style that isn't likely to be used ever again. 99.2. The same goes for "la lojban. mo". It's better to think of a book describing the history of Loglan and Lojban. Lojbab did a great job describing it: http://mw.lojban.org/lmw/lojbab_about_the_history_of_Lojban I'm sure this book will be much more interesting than republishing old tutorials, and I'm sure it will accumulate more money especially if you include interviews with active Lojbanists into it. Finally in this post I should note that the main obstacle in making Lojban more popular (my resume after spending several years in social networks and on IRC) is that people have nowhere to learn from except from the live community itself. Even CLL raises more questions than answers not including L4B and "la lojban. mo". Better teaching methods, this is what should be the main concern in language resources. We need not only a project manager but additionally a writer (may be one of us) who would accumulate all questions from newbies, put them into a constanty upgradable tutorial and (separately) an extended reference grammar. At the same time new learning methods (pure audiocourses, videos) have to be considered as alternative solutions. --f46d044288327a32aa050c63dfc4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I will continue in this thread = so that members can prepare more questions and replies.


2015-01-1= 1 19:13 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG=C2=A0<lojba= b@lojban.org>:
So the community needs to decide how to spend th= e additional money, including publishing a printed dictionary, perhaps a re= vision of the Nicholas/Turner textbook, and the next edition of CLL, which = will likely incorporate some changes to the language, as well possibly supp= orting additional LogFests, and perhaps paying someone to manage things as = Ali proposed a few weeks ago.=C2=A0 If Robin completely drops out, we may a= lso need to start paying for web-hosting and we may need to hire people to = make a new web site work.

I would be more c= oncerned with the hosting.
If you lose the = website you lose a major portion of income from selling CLL.

So here is my list i= n order of priority:
1. So the top priority= for me is CLL, version 1.1.
2. The next mu= st be the hosting in case ma'a lose the current one. Other issues depen= d on having a website. That's why it's important.

Can we know for sure = if/when Robin drops lojban.org support? I= f this is for sure we should start preparations for migration immediately!<= /div>

3. Aft= er that I'd prefer spending money on Ali's project manager position= provided that the manager not just collects opinions but integrates crucia= l aspects of former and current activity into one place (probably by puttin= g them into a wiki or onto an issues tracker), documents issues related to = relations with newcomers and contacts LLG members and BPFK activists (e.g. = "What learning resources can you recommend?", "How to transl= ate this or that...?"). E.g. if a person enters #ckule IRC chat, says = "Hello" and nobody replies in 20 minutes then this is a problem t= o document.
4.1. Lower than that I'd pu= t spending money on writing a new version of jbovlaste. There are many prop= osals there but here is one:=C2=A0https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/131
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">4.2. With the equal priority I'd pay for gett= ing a better glosser-RuleBasedMachineTranslator of Lojban to natural langua= ges (better than jbofi'e glosser) with case and conjugation handling (u= sing English as a working example). Converting from left-branching to right= -branching of clauses is also a must since this is how some Asian languages= work.
99.1. Robin Turner's tutorial. A= ctually I won't even bother upgrading it if once wants to be fair. How = many people managed to reach fluency in Lojban using it? Many people prefer= CLL to L4B even if by design CLL is not a tutorial. I highly doubt selling= L4B even if upgraded to post-xorlo will be beneficial for the language its= elf. The large portion of le lojbo cecmu are people talking via the interne= t. And L4B teaches a style that isn't likely to be used ever again.
99.2. The same goes for "la lojban. mo&qu= ot;.

I= t's better to think of a book describing the history of Loglan and Lojb= an. Lojbab did a great job describing it:=C2=A0http://mw.lojban.org/lmw/lojbab= _about_the_history_of_Lojban
I'm su= re this book will be much more interesting than republishing old tutorials,= and I'm sure it will accumulate more money especially if you include i= nterviews with active Lojbanists into it.
<= br>

Fi= nally in this post I should note that the main obstacle in making Lojban mo= re popular (my resume after spending several years in social networks and o= n IRC) is that people have nowhere to learn from except from the live commu= nity itself. Even CLL raises more questions than answers not including L4B = and "la lojban. mo".
Better teach= ing methods, this is what should be the main concern in language resources.=
We need not only a project manager but add= itionally a writer (may be one of us) who would accumulate all questions fr= om newbies, put them into a constanty upgradable tutorial and (separately) = an extended reference grammar. At the same time new learning methods (pure = audiocourses, videos) have to be considered as alternative solutions.
=
--f46d044288327a32aa050c63dfc4-- --===============9110389009510505841== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --===============9110389009510505841==--