Received: from localhost ([::1]:48326 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YgdBX-0006Qu-KW; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:57:43 -0700 Received: from mail-pd0-f177.google.com ([209.85.192.177]:33726) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YgdBQ-0006QN-Ob for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:57:41 -0700 Received: by pdbnk13 with SMTP id nk13so29741068pdb.0 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:57:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=IWKWRJmkd5zrnzTsJiIiZHHnJSt1PfvZJ/7S4qgm8tk=; b=ZOjtt0hiR4Qnh4oBs9lnv41aB75Imbq0Fw+CFqo1bTqGh36XdtfUr1ciVqgjMIhZ9v USD02FwaUzsxXVJDdkNTsSbxr8KgyLrbokwRpj0eWaDUfxX/lIzyfwmtYsPeDxl5Nim2 m0X+LPd0iBPVYDkjQHEyExf0Dkm8+J2uwxDbtQSUYpyQsFU4uSjwCmvJT5l6qWkg8ypg 6GGV6+1OMtVU5wJVT80VlcOXD3PaQSuEXXB2VCC/+Aqv6hqbdVw6Tw2Abz4hVqsttFuF 1H9ve5+Kr9gsapEB+0uWT5723T5ScKQSmnLJHaNUE33MLXXLypJZRmdN74I2KW6Zv+O2 jlpg== X-Received: by 10.70.140.171 with SMTP id rh11mr2133361pdb.39.1428688650356; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:57:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Craig Daniel Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 17:57:29 +0000 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Detailed Proposal of a Project Manager X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7164606989544699132==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============7164606989544699132== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1135f47a7fcfa70513627f86 --001a1135f47a7fcfa70513627f86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The Board can. I'm also fairly sure the general membership is empowered to instruct such things to happen - but if the money isn't there to spend, that's an unwise choice. On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 1:49 PM Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > Who can take the responsibility to spend LLG's money for given projects? > Maybe la .lojbab. can. > Anyway, we indeed don't know what problems Lojban and Lojbanistan has so > such a position may be important at least during a limited time. In a few > months we can decide if it benefited the language and the community. > > Compare to other possible proposals: > 1. Use money to advertise Lojban. I'd be completely against it since there > isn't much to advertise (most advertisable things like books need first to > be updated or finalized). > 2. Use money to support software projects. We don' t know what software > projects are necessary in the first place. Well, I know what projects are > important for me but I'm working on them myself. > > Well, still I think that spending money on Jbovlaste 2.0 might be > desirable. Although... again we don't have precise specifications of what > needs to be implemented in it. So yes, a project manager position might be > fine. > > > 2015-04-08 23:42 GMT+03:00 Ali Sajid Imami : > >> I don't have the details on how much we make. I would like to see those >> numbers and then we can come to an agreeable amount that can be paid. I >> will also do a bit more digging into the time calculations. I may have >> mixed up my limiters. My financial side is a bit... weak. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Ali Sajid Imami >> CTO >> Khabaristan Times >> >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:38 AM, And Rosta wrote: >> >>> LLG doesn't generate anything close to $250 per week, which is what it >>> would take to pay the contractor for 25 hours per week at $10 per hour on >>> an ongoing basis. Maybe instead we should work out what LLG could afford, >>> which is, I take it, an amount no greater than the average weekly profit >>> generated from CLL sales. What is the average weekly proxy from CLL sales? >>> Do we know? I'm guessing not much more than $10? That would pay for an hour >>> a week from the contractor. Would that be enough to accomplish anything >>> useful? >>> >>> Had you thought the financial side of things through, Ali? Maybe I'm >>> missing something -- certainly my reckoning is not based on any solid >>> figures. >>> >>> And >>> On 7 Apr 2015 18:46, "Ali Sajid Imami" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I honestly do not have an empirical basis for this, but the 25 hours I >>>> suggested was based on the current and projected social media activity, and >>>> the volume of chat in #lojban. I think 25 hours is probably the ceiling. >>>> >>>> Also, I had the US minimum wage in mind more than PK minimum wage. The >>>> reasoning being the massive conversion gap: 1 USD is approximately 100 PKR. >>>> So a US minimum wage ish thing, between $8 to $10 an hour. We need a >>>> project manager, not a sweatshop worker. This would arguably be expensive >>>> but we can honestly check the efficacy and see if it's worth it. Just as a >>>> comparison, a laborer who has a job here makes more than $12.50. Somewhat >>>> around $15. >>>> >>>> I think we can do a discussion about the hour estimation, and sign this >>>> person on for a 3 month trial. If they work out, we sign them on for 9 more >>>> months. And from that point on, we get the contract annually. >>>> >>>> Also, to answer your question, And, yes. The person is very quick in >>>> picking up languages and would learn it in a matter of weeks if the >>>> conversation keeps happening around her. As in, she doesn't know lojban yet >>>> but is aware of the principles and is learning it slowly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Ali Sajid Imami >>>> CTO >>>> Khabaristan Times >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 10:13 PM, And Rosta wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Ali Sajid Imami < >>>>> ali.sajid.imami@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I already have a candidate in mind, someone I implicitly trust and >>>>>> have worked with in similar situations. The willingness will be a huge >>>>>> plus, although not necessarily a requirement. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Do you mean that your candidate would be willing to work in Lojban >>>>> when their interlocutors prefer it? That's a big bonus. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd calculate the position to be about 25 hours a week. With about >>>>>> 100 hours a month should be fair. I think we can pay them off LLGs current >>>>>> account, as a contractor. I know LLG can't have an employee but I think we >>>>>> are allowed contractors. Something slightly above minimum wage for a person >>>>>> in Pakistan would be more than enough for this position. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is there really so much work of the sort you described, 1200 hours per >>>>> year? I'd have guesstimated 200--400 hours per year, but with very little >>>>> empirical basis for that. >>>>> >>>>> My googling suggests that the full-time PK minimum wage is $110 (USD) >>>>> per month. On first-world-ish assumptions of a 37 hour week and a month of >>>>> paid holiday, that's 147 hours per month. So the cost of 1200 hrs per year >>>>> would be c $75 per month ($900 a year), and the cost of 200--400 hrs per >>>>> year would be c $12.50--$25 per month ($150--$300 a year). Do those sums >>>>> match what you had in mind? >>>>> >>>>> If so, what about, say, a trial, initially for a year, for $12.50 a >>>>> month for an average of 16.7 hours a month? Make any necessary adjustments >>>>> so that the rate of pay is not arseholey or unconscionably exploitative. If >>>>> it's a roaring success and the funds are available, then it could be >>>>> increased. >>>>> >>>>> --And. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --001a1135f47a7fcfa70513627f86 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Board can. I'm also fairly sure the general member= ship is empowered to instruct such things to happen - but if the money isn&= #39;t there to spend, that's an unwise choice.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 1:49 PM Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> w= rote:
Who can take the r= esponsibility to spend LLG's money for given projects?
Maybe la .loj= bab. can.
Anyway, we indeed don't know what problems Lojban and Loj= banistan has so such a position may be important at least during a limited = time. In a few months we can decide if it benefited the language and the co= mmunity.

Compare to other possible proposals:
1= . Use money to advertise Lojban. I'd be completely against it since the= re isn't much to advertise (most advertisable things like books need fi= rst to be updated or finalized).
2. Use money to support software projec= ts. We don' t know what software projects are necessary in the first pl= ace. Well, I know what projects are important for me but I'm working on= them myself.

Well, still I think that spending money on Jbovlaste 2= .0 might be desirable. Although... again we don't have precise specific= ations of what needs to be implemented in it. So yes, a project manager pos= ition might be fine.

<= br>
2015-04-08 23:42 GMT+03:00 Ali Sajid Imami <ali.sajid.imami@gmail.com>:
I don't have the details on how much we ma= ke. I would like to see those numbers and then we can come to an agreeable = amount that can be paid. I will also do a bit more digging into the time ca= lculations. I may have mixed up my limiters. My financial side is a bit... = weak.



Reg= ards,
Ali Sajid Imami
CTO

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:38= AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:

LLG doesn't generate anything close = to $250 per week, which is what it would take to pay the contractor for 25 = hours per week at $10 per hour on an ongoing basis. Maybe instead we should= work out what LLG could afford, which is, I take it, an amount no greater = than the average weekly profit generated from CLL sales. What is the averag= e weekly proxy from CLL sales? Do we know? I'm guessing not much more t= han $10? That would pay for an hour a week from the contractor. Would that = be enough to accomplish anything useful?

Had you thought the financial side of things through, Ali? M= aybe I'm missing something -- certainly my reckoning is not based on an= y solid figures.

And

On 7 Apr 2015 18:46, "Ali Sajid Imami"= <ali.saj= id.imami@gmail.com> wrote:
I honestly do not have an empirical basis= for this, but the 25 hours I suggested was based on the current and projec= ted social media activity, and the volume of chat in #lojban. I think 25 ho= urs is probably the ceiling.

Also, I had the US minimum wage in mind= more than PK minimum wage. The reasoning being the massive conversion gap:= 1 USD is approximately 100 PKR. So a US minimum wage ish thing, between $8= to $10 an hour. We need a project manager, not a sweatshop worker. This wo= uld arguably be expensive but we can honestly check the efficacy and see if= it's worth it. Just as a comparison, a laborer who has a job here make= s more than $12.50. Somewhat around $15.

I think we can do a discuss= ion about the hour estimation, and sign this person on for a 3 month trial.= If they work out, we sign them on for 9 more months. And from that point o= n, we get the contract annually.

Also, to answer your question, And,= yes. The person is very quick in picking up languages and would learn it i= n a matter of weeks if the conversation keeps happening around her. As in, = she doesn't know lojban yet but is aware of the principles and is learn= ing it slowly.



= Regards,
Ali Sajid Imami
CTO
<= /div>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 10:13 PM, And Rosta <= span dir=3D"ltr"><and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:


On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Ali Sajid Imami <ali= .sajid.imami@gmail.com> wrote:
= I already have a candidate in mind, someone I implicitly trust and have wor= ked with in similar situations. The willingness will be a huge plus, althou= gh not necessarily a requirement.

Do you mean that your candidate would be willing to work in L= ojban when their interlocutors prefer it? That's a big bonus.

=C2=A0

I'd = calculate the position to be about 25 hours a week. With about 100 hours a = month should be fair. I think we can pay them off LLGs current account, as = a contractor. I know LLG can't have an employee but I think we are allo= wed contractors. Something slightly above minimum wage for a person in Paki= stan would be more than enough for this position.=C2=A0

Is there really so much work of the sort yo= u described, 1200 hours per year? I'd have guesstimated 200--400 hours = per year, but with very little empirical basis for that.

My googling suggests that the full-time PK minimum wage is $110 (USD= ) per month. On first-world-ish assumptions of a 37 hour week and a month o= f paid holiday, that's 147 hours per month. So the cost of 1200 hrs per= year would be c $75 per month ($900 a year), and the cost of 200--400 hrs = per year would be c $12.50--$25 per month ($150--$300 a year). Do those sum= s match what you had in mind?=C2=A0

If so, what ab= out, say, a trial, initially for a year, for $12.50 a month for an average = of 16.7 hours a month? Make any necessary adjustments so that the rate of p= ay is not arseholey or unconscionably exploitative. If it's a roaring s= uccess and the funds are available, then it could be increased.
=

--And.

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members
--001a1135f47a7fcfa70513627f86-- --===============7164606989544699132== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --===============7164606989544699132==--