Received: from localhost ([::1]:48665 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2D07-0003Fu-D5; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 23:27:07 -0700 Received: from mail-wi0-f193.google.com ([209.85.212.193]:33753) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2Czz-0003Fd-Fq for llg-members@lojban.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 23:27:04 -0700 Received: by wivz2 with SMTP id z2so1805269wiv.0 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 23:26:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=/uK4fexN80Fm117R8l2x6kLpSZq3ThGDMsLCz9+YfhQ=; b=GgqKrTMeezrAQz538GoAruxprgQtoxtTTpYqKssfmgfPnZDSuNmg3GUJ1FCkjAJ62D RmR7yNL24gv+oQKnfGyt3PAIBEsV/JDTfV7kabACy7FR4x4WGyrNztDVzd3Wa96FIJcx FR+fiZ4f5p+jmZzjnrCANj8a+5i0N8EthLsD/D/DlU5tNFl6ZV3ibpP7c+cKiTFQ78aR 6DQEwBXOtPyOJrAXGnSZ0Ppn80IcPrhyciK2lftBFvlztaDI55c623naEOtKympdkCL5 2wEtXCB753PVq8jnemiok3Tj77IcNeaKoryHBazkUNIBpKwNHO7qy+Tnl0e1t5PVoBCz 9j7A== X-Received: by 10.180.95.10 with SMTP id dg10mr29395841wib.41.1433831211802; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 23:26:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Jun 2015 23:26:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55763DBE.303@lojban.org> References: <55763DBE.303@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 09:26:31 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] paedagogics: about techniques of passive accumulation of Lojban X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7601176897754957089==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============7601176897754957089== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04447f830c228205180fd84c --f46d04447f830c228205180fd84c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-06-09 4:13 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier : > Probably better if sent (also) to the main list, since it is a topic that > non-members might have opinions/willingness to help ok. probably even some wiki page is needed so that we dont have to rewrite the description. > > > On 6/7/2015 1:13 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > >> Since "learn grammar" methods are showing their failure to teach Lojban >> over and over again (not absolutely but significantly) a number of steps >> have been taken lately to combat them. >> > > Please identify what constitutes a "learn grammar" method, as opposed to, > say, using CLL and/or Lojban For Beginners? I'd say that CLL exactly represents this grammar method. Also Wave Lessons ( http://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons) due to the lack of good real life examples in them can be called a "grammar" method. As opposed to them anti-grammar approach is when one is given sentences starting from very basic like {mi pinxe} to more advanced. Grammatical explanations are not to be completely removed ideally (although technical limitations can be a problem) but they are reduced. This second approach is based on the assumption that no language can be learnt from grammar only but mostly from usage examples. Even formal languages like e.g. programming languages can't be learnt via grammar only which is proved by the existence of such websites as stackoverflow.com Is a textbook needed/useful with a substantially different approach, and > how should it differ? > Textbook format will mostly be inappropriate for this format at all. > In what way can we tell that "learn grammar" methods are "showing their > failure"? > That people can't speak fluent Lojban after reading Wave Lessons or CLL, although e.g. I was able to start talking to Portuguese people after a month of listening to Portuguese Pimsleur course (given that its basic grammar is much more complex than that of Lojban). Another quote from one well-known Lojbanists who is raising jbocifnu: "If I'm learning Spanish, and I want to know how a Spanish person says, "Oh, my pants are covered in mud", I simply turn on Spanish talk radio and *wait*." This also expresses the same idea in different words. Lojban textbooks mostly lack such solutions to real life needs. Such flashcards approaches that you developed in past and which are ultimately based on the original SuperMemo SRS (spaced repetition system) is what this anti-grammarian approach is to be based on. The crucial difference is that it teaches not dictionary entries but how words (with their place structures) are used in context. For human brain there isn't much difference whether you remember {mi} or {mi pinxe} but the second is more useful. > In what way(s) does the NooLearn project address or fail to address these > issues? Could they incorporate aspects of your proposed Pimsleur method in > their project. > NooLearn is currently a simple quiz app. I sent them a few feature requests. Currently they don't have anything similar to SRS, although since it's in alpha we should send them more requests. It, however, has some potential since pages with quizes and pages with grammatical explanations can alternate so that any needed balance can be achieved. > Is there really all that much advantage to focus a learning method on the > audio components, given that a huge percentage of the Lojban-interested > community is solely interested in reading/writing the language, since they > are unlikely to actually use the language in everyday life (as opposed to > in specially arranged sessions on Skype)? > We dont have many Skype sessions partially because people are not exposed to Lojban audios. Also this approach can be used in flashcard apps. The same ordered sentence database can be used. Audio approach has an advantage in that you don't have to press any buttons. You just turn on your audio player and listen (and try to do exercises). --f46d04447f830c228205180fd84c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-06-09 4:13 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>:
Probably better if sent (also) to the main list,= since it is a topic that non-members might have opinions/willingness to he= lp

ok. probably even some wiki page is need= ed so that we dont have to rewrite the description.
=

On 6/7/2015 1:13 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
Since "learn grammar" methods are showing their failure to teach = Lojban
over and over again (not absolutely but significantly) a number of steps have been taken lately to combat them.

 Please identify what constitutes a "learn grammar" method, as opp= osed to, say, using CLL and/or Lojban For Beginners?

<= /div>
I'd say that CLL exactly represents this grammar method. Also= Wave Lessons (h= ttp://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons) due to the lack of good = real life examples in them can be called a "grammar" method.

As opposed to them anti-grammar approach is when one i= s given sentences starting from very basic like {mi pinxe} to more advanced= .

Grammatical explanations are not to be completel= y removed ideally (although technical limitations can be a problem) but the= y are reduced.
This second approach is based on the assumption th= at no language can be learnt from grammar only but mostly from usage exampl= es.=C2=A0 Even formal languages like e.g. programming languages can't b= e learnt via grammar only which is proved by the existence of such websites= as stackoverflow.com
Is a textbook needed/useful with a substantially = different approach, and how should it differ?

Textbook format will mostly be inappropriate for this format at all.=


In what way can we tell that "learn grammar" methods are "sh= owing their failure"?

That people = can't speak fluent Lojban after reading Wave Lessons or CLL, although e= .g. I was able to start talking to Portuguese people after a month of liste= ning to Portuguese Pimsleur course (given that its basic grammar is much mo= re complex than that of Lojban).

Another quote fro= m one well-known Lojbanists who is raising jbocifnu: "If I'm learn= ing Spanish, and I want to know how a Spanish person says, "Oh, my pan= ts are covered in mud", I simply turn on Spanish talk radio and wai= t."

This also expresses the same idea in = different words. Lojban textbooks mostly lack such solutions to real life n= eeds.

Such flashcards approaches that you develope= d in past and which are ultimately based on the original SuperMemo SRS (spa= ced repetition system) is what this anti-grammarian approach is to be based= on.
The crucial difference is that it teaches not dictionary ent= ries but how words (with their place structures) are used in context.
=
For human brain there isn't much difference whether you remember {= mi} or {mi pinxe} but the second is more useful.

<= br>

In what way(s) does the NooLearn project address or fail to address these i= ssues?=C2=A0 Could they incorporate aspects of your proposed Pimsleur metho= d in their project.

NooLearn is current= ly a simple quiz app. I sent them a few feature requests. Currently they do= n't have anything similar to SRS, although since it's in alpha we s= hould send them more requests.
It, however, has some potential si= nce pages with quizes and pages with grammatical explanations can alternate= so that any needed balance can be achieved.


<= /div>

Is there really all that much advantage to focus a learning method on the a= udio components, given that a huge percentage of the Lojban-interested comm= unity is solely interested in reading/writing the language, since they are = unlikely to actually use the language in everyday life (as opposed to in sp= ecially arranged sessions on Skype)?

We= dont have many Skype sessions partially because people are not exposed to = Lojban audios.
Also this approach can be used in flashcard apps. = The same ordered sentence database can be used.
Audio approach ha= s an advantage in that you don't have to press any buttons. You just tu= rn on your audio player and listen (and try to do exercises).
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