Received: from localhost ([::1]:56638 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1a9SYd-0001Th-DV; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:00:59 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f44.google.com ([74.125.82.44]:37963) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1a9SYX-0001TR-6N for llg-members@lojban.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:00:57 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f44.google.com with SMTP id l126so7345509wml.1 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:00:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=/pzKlqVjk/D0tVIwPquKyFYsOtnJbq4f7HrTAPYLCZI=; b=LslZi4PWE+A6ZhGolya/Njd0mLk+atjDu7CTqXkwqoaXErZNOpe0cInq+/wpx58hT1 bqPN9Oim432chZ9xRJaE3Ptye9H0RaKVO0+NZ6cjKAwhVt4sZZQfjF24VU3U/G2u6Op1 lqT6RoEXucfGQRyA7zDizy0z/uH+p5L/c5XH4iPULj26CwnW9KmueUMgoJ9sLtUDjLlL 6+i1dAvNdvQORMb4/9wxo94Q9zYJuBXw58S7s5KnEHuKLNLyZlM0BfJPA25a5ZpxA2Pn 0cf0LdgG0Osb77BgQbXIWd2sa6q5RCRbfKNMGgQyAbZpv1kwIGAD6l/VfORvnIrpIS65 M+aQ== X-Received: by 10.194.75.202 with SMTP id e10mr61229627wjw.160.1450335646071; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:00:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.74.105 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:00:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <4E514785-A922-4D75-B34A-EFB3880C5712@gmail.com> <566701E3.4060408@lojban.org> <566CD949.7010504@lojban.org> <5671E710.2020407@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:00:06 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1347766440646541052==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============1347766440646541052== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bb049c0fd4312052712940e --047d7bb049c0fd4312052712940e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-12-17 6:26 GMT+03:00 guskant : > 2015-12-16 22:34 GMT+00:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - > LLG : > > > My own thoughts, for what they are worth: > > > > Bear in mind that at this point, LLG does not directly control the > > definition of the Lojban language, but rather it interfaces with the byfy > > jatna who is directing the activities of that group to do so. (It is > > uncertain at this point whether LLG or byfy will be responsible for > > producing the next edition of CLL, when Robin finishes what he is > currently > > almost done with. By default, if he wants it, I suspect that Robin > himself > > will direct that next CLL effort, if he wants to, but a few months ago he > > was planning to greatly reduce his Lojban commitments and activities.) > > > > I think byfy must be responsible for the contents of CLL, and LLG must be > responsible for the publication. > > Actually, the next CLL is currently modified mainly by Cirko, Mezohe and > Gleki. > https://github.com/lojban/cll/commits/docbook-prince-cll-2.0 > I think the modifications should be periodically or finally discussed > and admitted by byfy, but I observed only few topics among many > modifications were discussed. For example, we partially discussed the > word "observative" > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bpfk-list/_I-_wj8dDn0/discussion > and no voting process is (yet?) performed about the modification that > Gleki made on github: > > https://github.com/lojban/cll/compare/f3bdbe36e4f89d08d56d28cb693fc2ddfbc6785c...6519b9d297dc7e85d616e1a44282a6ada301c631 > > As for that topic, I abandoned to reply to Gleki because I realized > that Gleki has too little knowledge of philosophy for us to continue > the discussion on the thread; I think it would be better return to the > topic after I finish my commentary on the philosophical and logical > basis of the design of Lojban. > I made that modification because it didn't explain any philosophy. But I of course approve of any new explanations of e.g. Quine's "observation sentences". > Well, that is a problem to be solved by byfy itself. > The problem to be discussed here is to confirm how the current > modifications on the next version of CLL is going to be official. > > > > > Since it should be clear by now that I am timewise and healthwise not > > capable of managing everything or even most things that LLG does, it is > > critical that we have people on the Board who are able and willing to > step > > in and lead or manage various the efforts by LLG to achieve YOUR goals. > To > > put it simply, we have not had enough such people on the Board. I can > > strongly commend mukti and gleki among the Board members as being > > particularly active in both leading and doing things. > > > > But we need more. More on the Board who are willing to take action, or > to > > lead others in doing so. > > > > I'm sorry but I have lost confidence in Gleki. > It is not for his lack of knowledge of philosophy, but for some > activities of communication: > > 1. Gleki suggested the creator of Lojban version of the brower Vivaldi > to use an experimental cmavo "la'oi" without warning of > "experimental". > I don't know where you got this information from. It is at least phrased incorrectly. It is not related to me. Simply the localization string doesn't allow for using {la'o zoi ... zoi}. The localization string is simply "Search", not "Search %1". You can join Transifex Vivaldi team and see it yourself. It's just not possible to insert {zoi} AFTER the name of the search engine. I'm not going to ask the developers to change that because it's more likely that they remove Lojban at all rather than adopt our change. 2. Gleki removed the words "culturally neutral" from the top page of > Lojban website. > Indeed, I periodically get some negative feedback or questions and when no one seem to answer them I remove corresponding strings. This has happened to the Wikipedia article where I removed or commented out everything that was not supported by any sources (on the other hand I added many more previously absent concepts they *were* supported by sources). This sometimes happens to the front page. I'm just trying apply the same policy as exists for Wikipedia in general. So for this particular issue I suggest using BPFK to solve it. I'm curious myself how is Lojban culturaly neutral when it creates its own culture and when historically it was a culturally non neutral Eaton's list representing a subset of Standard Average European Sprachbund. 3. Gleki advertised some derivations of Lojban as "Lojban", while he > did some other derivations that are unpleasant to him as "non-Lojban". > Well, not sure what you mean but what has been advertised as Lojban, which in reality is not? I'm writing some tutorials and the only source and feedback for them is YOU, Lojbanic community. Of course when two conflicting opinions clash I have either to avoid them or to merge them into one or to choose one of them. I have too few my own opinions to advertise them as my own. I'm just not interested in supporting any opinions. My main goal is a learnable usable language no matter what that language is. I mostly ask questions, pack them into articles or parts of textbooks and wait for feedback. Of course, the result can be that some reply "Why did you choose others' opinion, not my?" If you have some questions you are free to ask them, to propose solutions like many other people have already done. I'M NOT TO ADVERTISE OR PROMOTE ANY STILL PROJECTS. But I'm to promote constantly self-updating urls. If you provide feedback then these urls will change after your proposals and suggestions. > > (As for 2, I don't think either that Lojban _is_ culturally neutral, but at > least we could aim at it as an ideal, and the words are still worth > mentioning on the top > page.) > So that's not about Lojban but about some trend in its lexicon or grammar? That might be worth adding provided that a corresponding article about this trend exists. Otherwise people start to think (not without any ground) that Lojbanic community is lying. > > > > Last meeting, there seemed to be a sense that the community wants to > > increase communications among the various subgroups of Lojbanists, > grouped > > either by geography or language or activity. I myself have been largely > > oblivious of these activities. For example, I have recently been told of > > great things that guskant has achieved in Japan and in Lojban videos, > but I > > have barely known that there even existed Lojbanists in Japan, and to my > > chagrin, I haven't even once personally communicated with guskant. This > > really needs to change, and LLG as an organization is well-suited for > this. > > But what should we be doing? > > > > Thank you all for viewing my artworks! > I don't know how the communities in different native languages will be > able to know each other. > It is progress that Gleki has recently succeeded in connecting some > social networks: > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/ng0WbJ11RzU/discussion That was mostly to connect no longer popular IRC back to the internet + to provide chat log history for everyone, not for some geeky elite + provide a better QA tool when the current ones are either no longer popular (IRC and e-mail) or don't provide non-desruptive connection (IRC). > > > However, I am still pessimistic about the effectiveness. > Actually, a Japanese community uses Japanese for discussion of Lojban, > a Chinese community uses Chinese for it, and so on. > The problem is that they are not much willing to make contact with > other communities of Lojban in Lojban. > That's my vision too. And I don't see any possibility anytime soon to change that except for writing better tools to make people learn the language. > I can only post the news around the communities when I noticed: > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/nuzba/en > > mu'o mi'e la guskant > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --047d7bb049c0fd4312052712940e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-12-17 6:26 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:
2015-12-16 22:34 GMT+00:00 Bob LeChevalier, Pres= ident and Founder -
LLG <lojbab@lojban.org>:

> My own thoughts, for what they are worth:
>
> Bear in mind that at this point, LLG does not directly control the
> definition of the Lojban language, but rather it interfaces with the b= yfy
> jatna who is directing the activities of that group to do so.=C2=A0 (I= t is
> uncertain at this point whether LLG or byfy will be responsible for > producing the next edition of CLL, when Robin finishes what he is curr= ently
> almost done with.=C2=A0 By default, if he wants it, I suspect that Rob= in himself
> will direct that next CLL effort, if he wants to, but a few months ago= he
> was planning to greatly reduce his Lojban commitments and activities.)=
>

I think byfy must be responsible for the contents of CLL, and LLG mu= st be
responsible for the publication.

Actually, the next CLL is currently modified mainly by Cirko, Mezohe and Gl= eki.
https://github.com/lojban/cll/commits/do= cbook-prince-cll-2.0
I think the modifications should be periodically or finally discussed
and admitted by byfy, but I observed only few topics among many
modifications were discussed. For example, we partially discussed the
word "observative"
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/= bpfk-list/_I-_wj8dDn0/discussion
and no voting process is (yet?) performed about the modification that
Gleki made on github:
https://github.com/lojban/cll/compare/f3bdbe36e4f89d08= d56d28cb693fc2ddfbc6785c...6519b9d297dc7e85d616e1a44282a6ada301c631

As for that topic, I abandoned to reply to Gleki because I realized
that Gleki has too little knowledge of philosophy for us to continue
the discussion on the thread; I think it would be better return to the
topic after I finish my commentary on the philosophical and logical
basis of the design of Lojban.

I made t= hat modification because it didn't explain any philosophy. But I of cou= rse approve of any new explanations of e.g. Quine's "observation s= entences".


Well, that is a problem to be solved by byfy itself.
The problem to be discussed here is to confirm how the current
modifications on the next version of CLL is going to be official.

>
> Since it should be clear by now that I am timewise and healthwise not<= br> > capable of managing everything or even most things that LLG does, it i= s
> critical that we have people on the Board who are able and willing to = step
> in and lead or manage various the efforts by LLG to achieve YOUR goals= .=C2=A0 To
> put it simply, we have not had enough such people on the Board.=C2=A0 = I can
> strongly commend mukti and gleki among the Board members as being
> particularly active in both leading and doing things.
>
> But we need more.=C2=A0 More on the Board who are willing to take acti= on, or to
> lead others in doing so.
>

I'm sorry but I have lost confidence in Gleki.
It is not for his lack of knowledge of philosophy, but for some
activities of communication:

1. Gleki suggested the creator of Lojban version of the brower Vivaldi
to use an experimental cmavo "la'oi" without warning of
"experimental".

I don't k= now where you got this information from. It is at least phrased incorrectly= .
It is not related to me. Simply the localization string doesn&#= 39;t allow for using {la'o zoi ... zoi}. The localization string is sim= ply "Search", not "Search %1".
You can jo= in Transifex Vivaldi team and see it yourself. It's just not possible t= o insert {zoi} AFTER the name of the search engine.
I'm not g= oing to ask the developers to change that because it's more likely that= they remove Lojban at all rather than adopt our change.


2. Gleki removed the words "culturally neutral" from the top page= of
Lojban website.

Indeed, I periodically = get some negative feedback or questions and when no one seem to answer them= I remove corresponding strings.
This has happened to the Wikiped= ia article where I removed or commented out everything that was not support= ed by any sources (on the other hand I added many more previously absent co= ncepts they *were* supported by sources).
This sometimes happ= ens to the front page. I'm just trying apply the same policy as exists = for Wikipedia in general.


So for th= is particular issue I suggest using BPFK to solve it. I'm curious mysel= f how is Lojban culturaly neutral when it creates its own culture and when = historically it was a culturally non neutral Eaton's list representing = a subset of Standard Average European Sprachbund.

3. Gleki advertised some derivations of Lojban as "Lojban", while= he
did some other derivations that are unpleasant to him as "non-Lojban&q= uot;.

Well, not sure what you mean but = what has been advertised as Lojban, which in reality is not?
I= 9;m writing some tutorials and the only source and feedback for them is YOU= , Lojbanic community.
Of course when two conflicting opinions cla= sh I have either to avoid them or to merge them into one or to choose one o= f them.

I have too few my own opinions to advertis= e them as my own. I'm just not interested in supporting any opinions. M= y main goal is a learnable usable language no matter what that language is.= I mostly ask questions, pack them into articles or parts of textbooks and = wait for feedback.

Of course, the result can be th= at some reply "Why did you choose others' opinion, not my?"
If you have some questions you are free to ask them, to propose so= lutions like many other people have already done.

<= div>I'M NOT TO ADVERTISE OR PROMOTE ANY STILL PROJECTS.
But I= 'm to promote constantly self-updating urls.
If you provide f= eedback then these urls will change after your proposals and suggestions.

=C2=A0

(As for 2, I don't think either that Lojban _is_ culturally neutral, bu= t at
least we could aim at it as an ideal, and the words are still worth
mentioning on the top
page.)

So that's not about Lojban b= ut about some trend in its lexicon or grammar? That might be worth adding p= rovided that =C2=A0a corresponding article about this trend exists. Otherwi= se people start to think (not without any ground) that Lojbanic community i= s lying.


> Last meeting, there seemed to be a sense that the community wants to > increase communications among the various subgroups of Lojbanists, gro= uped
> either by geography or language or activity.=C2=A0 I myself have been = largely
> oblivious of these activities.=C2=A0 For example, I have recently been= told of
> great things that guskant has achieved in Japan and in Lojban videos, = but I
> have barely known that there even existed Lojbanists in Japan, and to = my
> chagrin, I haven't even once personally communicated with guskant.= =C2=A0 This
> really needs to change, and LLG as an organization is well-suited for = this.
> But what should we be doing?
>

Thank you all for viewing my artworks!
I don't know how the communities in different native languages will be<= br> able to know each other.
It is progress that Gleki has recently succeeded in connecting some
social networks:
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/loj= ban/ng0WbJ11RzU/discussion

That was mos= tly to connect no longer popular IRC back to the internet + to provide chat= log history for everyone, not for some geeky elite + provide a better QA t= ool when the current ones are either no longer popular (IRC and e-mail) or = don't provide non-desruptive connection (IRC).
=

However, I am still pessimistic about the effectiveness.
Actually, a Japanese community uses Japanese for discussion of Lojban,
a Chinese community uses Chinese for it, and so on.
The problem is that they are not much willing to make contact with
other communities of Lojban in Lojban.

= That's my vision too. And I don't see any possibility anytime soon = to change that except for writing better tools to make people learn the lan= guage.
=C2=A0
I can only post the news around the communities when I noticed:
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/nuzba/en

mu'o mi'e la guskant

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs

--047d7bb049c0fd4312052712940e-- --===============1347766440646541052== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --===============1347766440646541052==--