Received: from localhost ([::1]:56704 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1a9Ssh-0001qG-Gn; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:21:43 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f46.google.com ([74.125.82.46]:34458) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1a9Ssf-0001pv-BH for llg-members@lojban.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:21:41 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f46.google.com with SMTP id l126so10281217wml.1 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:21:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=evozhXj/s6B2LYK30KKj2QTvVRXv3q9Hx/TSBTUIheQ=; b=iz16IGPkduJ+fN9Ku2ba8woynGH2SWVRPWE636ZwOA8C4pKQgsuplWZPjlXd+9LCDv apYGasFc/FeYJaM58+3AiO3wi19YnI4qk0r7PNM+8hwefQDY9iG0jREJroyoKp9rwjLy IqN+C5RVL0vgmwzhXeUKkxuN3IGWdIOfuDgZGZ3d+IyXDEVPpDTkUovP/FqomoaH7xy/ aCYZVGiR8NjOKqJW457u0x73Gi9n7JLXzLz8hRO8sl5PEUENOdsV4bLJgkXz/B4scj+w +/1v7CZdnVwSrcRGoCghhiqcd8zGQNWGidx3W7MicU3SAxrOIHDgDyPJSxiSG+U/Xjvj W7Tg== X-Received: by 10.194.63.238 with SMTP id j14mr62063107wjs.172.1450336894734; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:21:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.74.105 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:20:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5671E710.2020407@lojban.org> References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <4E514785-A922-4D75-B34A-EFB3880C5712@gmail.com> <566701E3.4060408@lojban.org> <566CD949.7010504@lojban.org> <5671E710.2020407@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:20:55 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Note: SpamAssassin invocation failed Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1680393474791905017==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============1680393474791905017== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86d5d06a5708052712dfaf --047d7b86d5d06a5708052712dfaf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-12-17 1:34 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG < lojbab@lojban.org>: > On 12/13/2015 3:18 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote= : > >> On 12/13/2015 6:21 AM, Ilmen wrote: >> >>> On 13/12/2015 06:58, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> 2015-12-13 5:34 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier >>> >: >>>> >>>> So first of all, I need a motion from some member proposing Curtis >>>> for membership. If such a motion is made within the next day or >>>> so, then I'll allow until end of day Tuesday for any objection. >>>> >>>> >>>> I propose Curtis W. Franks for membership. >>>> >>>> I second this. >>> >>> =E2=80=94Ilmen. >>> >> >> Moved and seconded. Per my last, if no objection by end of day Tuesday, >> Curtis will be added to the membership immediately in order for him to >> vote in the Board election. >> > > Curtis W Franks is now a member of LLG. > > I still haven't had time to propose a text for the Bylaw amendment, and > apparently no one else has either (if anyone is trying, please speak up). > > So that time is not wasted, I would like the membership to discuss what > they think LLG should be doing with regard to Lojban, both in terms of > goals and activities. You can look to the Bylaws as to the scope of what > we are allowed to do, but what we actually do, is primarily determined by > you-all as voting members, and by the activities of the larger Lojban > community that you represent. > > I would love to see *each and every one* of you members (and for that > matter, any non-members present who wish to speak), to come forth with yo= ur > opinion. > > There should be more to being a member of LLG than to admit your > attendance at these meetings once a year, and then fall silent while we > slowly work through an agenda that largely passes without comment or > objection. (It seems to me that if no one at all objects to anything tha= t > is proposed, it strongly suggests that we aren't being very bold in our > proposals. Or worse, that nobody even cares.) > > So please, speak up. > > I intend that the meeting will be in recess from 12/23 to 12/27 as far as > official business is concerned, though this discussion can and should > continue if you-all have things to say. Ideally, we'll get the amendment > out of the way before then, and do the Board elections afterwards. > > My own thoughts, for what they are worth: > > Bear in mind that at this point, LLG does not directly control the > definition of the Lojban language, but rather it interfaces with the byfy > jatna who is directing the activities of that group to do so. (It is > uncertain at this point whether LLG or byfy will be responsible for > producing the next edition of CLL, when Robin finishes what he is current= ly > almost done with. By default, if he wants it, I suspect that Robin himse= lf > will direct that next CLL effort, if he wants to, but a few months ago he > was planning to greatly reduce his Lojban commitments and activities.) > Also note that Amazon itself, not only its partners (charging for their service) is now able to print books. > > LLG has been running Logfests for years, but they have rarely had even a > couple dozen people participate, which means that they are decreasingly > effective as means for Lojbanists to get together, to interact, and to us= e > or promote the language. It becomes harder to justify spending a thousand > dollars for such a small group. LLG has over $15,000 in the bank, and is > legally established as a non profit organization to allow us to raise > additional funds relatively easily (at least within the US). But if we ar= e > going to spend a thousand dollars or even more on Lojban activities, they > should be things that you, representing the community think that we shoul= d > be doing. > I disapproved of the last Logfest but took my words back when I learned that a fluent speaker (la tsani in this case) was to be present. But indeed, how many new products we get after each Logfest? I'd say none. This time we got something from NooLearning but their tool itself is not optimized for learning languages. Instead of that I can suggest 1. Stop financially supporting useless Logfest meetings. 2. pay really helpful members (e.g. la guskant or la selpa'i or la ilmen or others) to finish really useful projects. E.g. I can imagine finishing logical explanations of the language like in connection to Quine (a topic in may ways lost in CLL), producing better tutorials in Japanese or Chinese (I can already see that some of them at least look more cute than the English "Lojban for Beginners" or CLL not even taking into account their actual content). The list goes on. The current Chinese Lojban for Beginners in Chinese looks more like a broken phone game, I of course mean that one shouldn't even try to translate Lojban for Beginners at all. 3. When these projects are finished and the results are in Amazon (the only shop I know) or in other shops advertise them via Google Adwords or build a new website. 4. Or maybe someone would like to present Lojban at some conferences and will need money for that. > Our next step will be to elect a new Board of Directors, which will in > turn elect the officers of LLG for the next year, as well as manage the > efforts of LLG in order to achieve whatever it is you-all think we should > be doing. > > Since it should be clear by now that I am timewise and healthwise not > capable of managing everything or even most things that LLG does, it is > critical that we have people on the Board who are able and willing to ste= p > in and lead or manage various the efforts by LLG to achieve YOUR goals. = To > put it simply, we have not had enough such people on the Board. I can > strongly commend mukti and gleki among the Board members as being > particularly active in both leading and doing things. > > But we need more. More on the Board who are willing to take action, or t= o > lead others in doing so. > I suggest that other existing LLG members volunteer too. > Last meeting, there seemed to be a sense that the community wants to > increase communications among the various subgroups of Lojbanists, groupe= d > either by geography or language or activity. I myself have been largely > oblivious of these activities. For example, I have recently been told of > great things that guskant has achieved in Japan and in Lojban videos, but= I > have barely known that there even existed Lojbanists in Japan, and to my > chagrin, I haven't even once personally communicated with guskant. This really needs to change, and LLG as an organization is well-suited > for this. But what should we be doing? > E.g. I have a strong feeling judging from la guskant's replies that the communication channel is really poor. E.g. I'm saying something that leads to la guskant thinking what I could never expect anyone to judge from my words. Even now I don't understand what's happening. If the communication is increased then such misunderstandings would always eliminate themselves over time. I mean a two-way communication. E.g. not just reading logs of the mailing list of the chat but asking questions and providing answers. For this I suggest forcing every LLG member to participate in voice or real time chats on a regular basis like e.g. once every two months for at least an hour or so. But only if the members are able to communicate in pure Lojban (for others the requirement is simply not to be applied) For this to accomplish voice chats using Skype or Mumble and IRC text chats are available. Strangely enough, Lojbab has suggested that several times but this practice subsided immediately leading to misunderstandings rising. > --------------------- > > The floor is yours, until I (or someone) gets something done on the Bylaw > amendment. > > > lojbab > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --047d7b86d5d06a5708052712dfaf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-12-17 1:34 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG = <lojbab@lojban.org>:
On 12/13/2015 3:18 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder -= LLG wrote:
On 12/13/2015 6:21 AM, Ilmen wrote:
On 13/12/2015 06:58, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:

2015-12-13 5:34 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org
 <mailto:lojbab@lo= jban.org>>:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 So first of all, I need a motion from some member proposing C= urtis
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for membership.=C2=A0 If such a motion is made within the nex= t day or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 so, then I'll allow until end of day Tuesday for any obje= ction.


I propose Curtis W. Franks for membership.

I second this.

=E2=80=94Ilmen.

Moved and seconded.=C2=A0 Per my last, if no objection by end of day Tuesda= y,
Curtis will be added to the membership immediately in order for him to
vote in the Board election.

Curtis W Franks is now a member of LLG.

I still haven't had time to propose a text for the Bylaw amendment, and= apparently no one else has either (if anyone is trying, please speak up).<= br>
So that time is not wasted, I would like the membership to discuss what the= y think LLG should be doing with regard to Lojban, both in terms of goals a= nd activities.=C2=A0 You can look to the Bylaws as to the scope of what we = are allowed to do, but what we actually do, is primarily determined by you-= all as voting members, and by the activities of the larger Lojban community= that you represent.

I would love to see *each and every one* of you members (and for that matte= r, any non-members present who wish to speak), to come forth with your opin= ion.

There should be more to being a member of LLG than to admit your attendance= at these meetings once a year, and then fall silent while we slowly work t= hrough an agenda that largely passes without comment or objection.=C2=A0 (I= t seems to me that if no one at all objects to anything that is proposed, i= t strongly suggests that we aren't being very bold in our proposals. Or= worse, that nobody even cares.)

So please, speak up.

I intend that the meeting will be in recess from 12/23 to 12/27 as far as o= fficial business is concerned, though this discussion can and should contin= ue if you-all have things to say.=C2=A0 Ideally, we'll get the amendmen= t out of the way before then, and do the Board elections afterwards.

My own thoughts, for what they are worth:

Bear in mind that at this point, LLG does not directly control the definiti= on of the Lojban language, but rather it interfaces with the byfy jatna who= is directing the activities of that group to do so.=C2=A0 (It is uncertain= at this point whether LLG or byfy will be responsible for producing the ne= xt edition of CLL, when Robin finishes what he is currently almost done wit= h.=C2=A0 By default, if he wants it, I suspect that Robin himself will dire= ct that next CLL effort, if he wants to, but a few months ago he was planni= ng to greatly reduce his Lojban commitments and activities.)

Also note that Amazon itself, not only its partners (= charging for their service) is now able to print books.

LLG has been running Logfests for years, but they have rarely had even a co= uple dozen people participate, which means that they are decreasingly effec= tive as means for Lojbanists to get together, to interact, and to use or pr= omote the language. It becomes harder to justify spending a thousand dollar= s for such a small group. LLG has over $15,000 in the bank, and is legally = established as a non profit organization to allow us to raise additional fu= nds relatively easily (at least within the US). But if we are going to spen= d a thousand dollars or even more on Lojban activities, they should be thin= gs that you, representing the community think that we should be doing.
<= /blockquote>

I disapproved of the last Logfest but took = my words back when I learned that a fluent speaker (la tsani in this case) = was to be present.

But indeed, how many new produc= ts we get after each Logfest? I'd say none. This time we got something = from NooLearning but their tool itself is not optimized for learning langua= ges.

Instead of that I can suggest=C2=A0
1. Stop financially supporting useless Logfest meetings.
2. pay = really helpful members (e.g. la guskant or la selpa'i or la ilmen or ot= hers) to finish really useful projects.
E.g. I can imagine finish= ing logical explanations of the language like in connection to Quine (a top= ic in may ways lost in CLL), producing better tutorials in Japanese or Chin= ese (I can already see that some of them at least look more cute than the E= nglish "Lojban for Beginners" or CLL not even taking into account= their actual content). The list goes on. The current Chinese Lojban for Be= ginners in Chinese looks more like a broken phone game, I of course mean th= at one shouldn't even try to translate Lojban for Beginners at all.
3. When these projects are finished and the results are in Amazon (t= he only shop I know) or in other shops advertise them via Google Adwords or= build a new website.
4. Or maybe someone would like to present L= ojban at some conferences and will need money for that.


Our next step will be to elect a new Board of Directors, which will in turn= elect the officers of LLG for the next year, as well as manage the efforts= of LLG in order to achieve whatever it is you-all think we should be doing= .

Since it should be clear by now that I am timewise and healthwise not capab= le of managing everything or even most things that LLG does, it is critical= that we have people on the Board who are able and willing to step in and l= ead or manage various the efforts by LLG to achieve YOUR goals.=C2=A0 To pu= t it simply, we have not had enough such people on the Board.=C2=A0 I can s= trongly commend mukti and gleki among the Board members as being particular= ly active in both leading and doing things.

But we need more.=C2=A0 More on the Board who are willing to take action, o= r to lead others in doing so.

I suggest= that other existing LLG members volunteer too.


Last meeting, there seemed to be a sense that the community wants to increa= se communications among the various subgroups of Lojbanists, grouped either= by geography or language or activity.=C2=A0 I myself have been largely obl= ivious of these activities.=C2=A0 For example, I have recently been told of= great things that guskant has achieved in Japan and in Lojban videos, but = I have barely known that there even existed Lojbanists in Japan, and to my = chagrin, I haven't even once personally communicated with guskant.
=C2=A0 This really needs to change, = and LLG as an organization is well-suited for this.=C2=A0 But what should w= e be doing?

E.g. I have a strong feelin= g judging from la guskant's replies that the communication channel is r= eally poor.
E.g. I'm saying something that leads to la guskan= t thinking what I could never expect anyone to judge from my words. Even no= w I don't understand what's happening. If the communication is incr= eased then such misunderstandings would always eliminate themselves over ti= me.

I mean a two-way communication. E.g. not just = reading logs of the mailing list of the chat but asking questions and provi= ding answers.
For this I suggest forcing every LLG member to part= icipate in voice or real time chats on a regular basis like e.g. once every= two months for at least an hour or so. But only if the members are able to= communicate in pure Lojban (for others the requirement is simply not to be= applied)

For this to accomplish voice chats using= Skype or Mumble and IRC text chats are available.
Strangely enou= gh, Lojbab has suggested that several times but this practice subsided
<= /div>
immediately leading to misunderstandings rising.



---------------------

The floor is yours, until I (or someone) gets something done on the Bylaw a= mendment.


lojbab




_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs

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