Received: from localhost ([::1]:38249 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aCM9B-0000z1-7K; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 22:46:41 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f41.google.com ([74.125.82.41]:36573) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aCM94-0000yr-NE for llg-members@lojban.org; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 22:46:39 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f41.google.com with SMTP id p187so196553740wmp.1 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 22:46:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=PChaidxy532hMiIXf3OMyyVbPWXqlHUSKDJBZIN5p6o=; b=pGs9K06njqHohd1tl5z8epIrcA6hDFKzVf3q1lgs9DK3cAIA5lBUQ2zmBDIcwmQMt4 vPleWScUtMnY3Av+jBdDcEz3pJDU6WUDpuFpR45EJeDEgKc5/ptUmSHolPwKAxUaKEzW sbdcuIbzEaFMcfEZ4hLEUF8B02yTqy2hHFZuElv+GEK4dddIHDpGTMWRH2HbG8yeZj80 X/zO7E1CVhvVcJnVlv0/rUeelyYv3m+f3UZNr6kdH+u5x27RDPilC6NuYXQPLisBamTs fd3xuKNmYtWYgYEvV7S++5CQU5pAcfpsJj6HvQ0m3SdIxj6BOvk6OY4taa8ZP4YiyJ+X gSnQ== X-Received: by 10.28.47.11 with SMTP id v11mr30936952wmv.27.1451025988028; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 22:46:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.92.206 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 22:45:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <4E514785-A922-4D75-B34A-EFB3880C5712@gmail.com> <566701E3.4060408@lojban.org> <566CD949.7010504@lojban.org> <5671E710.2020407@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 09:45:48 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4671573343651650832==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============4671573343651650832== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11423e00938fcd0527b35062 --001a11423e00938fcd0527b35062 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-12-25 5:33 GMT+03:00 guskant : > 2015-12-24 14:46 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > > > > > > 2015-12-24 17:33 GMT+03:00 guskant : > >> > >> 2015-12-24 13:30 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > >> > > >> > > >> > 2015-12-24 16:08 GMT+03:00 guskant : > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 2015-12-23 6:55 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna >: > >> >> > > >> >> > I'd rather say that Lojban is very far from linguistics, even > >> >> > polyglots > >> >> > and > >> >> > professional linguists can't understand CLL. > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> Did you take statistics of it? I'm neither linguist nor polyglot, but > >> >> in my opinion, CLL, even the first version, is the easiest to > >> >> understand among all the learning materials in English. > >> > > >> > > >> > Well, lucky you that you are neither a linguist nor a polyglot. > >> > It might be so that polyglots and conlangers > >> > > >> > ( > http://conlangery.com/2012/03/19/conlangery-42-practicum-getting-rid-of-adjectives/ > >> > ) may just expect something written in "normal" linguistic > terminology. > >> > > >> > I have no idea how and whether they tried to learn Straits Salishan > >> > language > >> > but even the latter at least *seems* to be described in some set of > >> > terms > >> > usual to linguists. > >> > > >> > And when they don't find it they laugh at it or just throw away. > >> > To name the third case (the second is Wikipedia) Andre Muller on > >> > Facebook > >> > said that after abandoning Lojban he had to read The Crash Course > where > >> > the > >> > word "predicate" was not even mentioned at that time and only after > that > >> > (having understood the basics) he returned to reading CLL. > >> > > >> > > >> > >> OK, so you have no statistics and opine based on your own ideal. > > > > > > No stats since too few people ever succeeded. > > And those were their opinions, not mine. You may check themselves. I can > > send a link to the post in facebook (the third case). > > > >> > >> > >> We have now two different opinions about CLL: > >> 1. You think that other polyglots and conlangers don't understand CLL. > >> 2. Masato, the super-polyglot, and I, the ordinary person, both think > >> that the current CLL is easy to understand. > > > > > > If Masato speaks only English, Chinese and Japanese then he is in usual > > sense not a polyglot. 5 languages are usually required. > > > > But he is a programmer and we know that being a programmer is the most > > common trend among Lojbanists. > > > > I simply took your words "he is a hyperpolyglot if...". I really hate > your responses without consistency. > > Off topic: Masato's most fluent languages are Japanese, Chinese and > English, but I know he speaks Cantonese and Korean, maybe he has > knowledge of Hakka Chinese and others. > >> > >> > >> From these very limited information, we can only conclude: > >> 1-1. In order to promote Lojban to other polyglots and conlangers, > >> some text in terms of linguistics are necessary. > > > > > > Yes. > > > >> > >> 2-1. In order to promote Lojban to super-polyglots and ordinary > >> people, the current CLL is enough (though some modifications based on > >> the development of Lojban are required for the next version). > > > > > > I wouldn't limit anyone in any resources at all. We can't know beforehand > > life experience of newcomers. > > > > It's much easier than that. > > CLL is to be retained, L4B and la'e {la lojban. mo} are to be either > updated > > or abandoned. > > New resources are to be constantly updated, monitored and presented to > > newcomers. > > I would in every way welcome any new methods of presenting and teaching > > Lojban. > > > > After that we can observe some trends and make some conclusions. > > > >> > >> Then, we have only one peaceful solution: you make another book for > >> linguists, and the others brush up CLL for super-polyglots and > >> ordinary people according to the current policy. > > > > > > CLL as it is now is absolutely fine to me. Maybe there is some abuse of > > English terminology like "letteral" but in general nothing serious is to > be > > fixed. One can add a short notice "lo sumti correspond to nouns, > pronouns, > > names in English", and this notice would be enough. I can imagine this > book > > only expanding. > > > > Simply, as la .pycyn. said it's not a textbook :). That's why people are > > having problems with understanding it. > > > >> > >> > >> > > >> >> > >> >> Masato > >> >> Hagiwara, who is fluent in Japanese, Chinese and English, and also a > >> >> researcher of Natural Language Processing, agreed to my opinion. > >> > > >> > > >> > Oh well, how many people on Earth are like Masato Hagiwara? > >> > He is a hyperpolyglot if you consider programming languages as > >> > languages. > >> > > >> > We need to extend Lojban presence by repacking its learning resources > >> > into > >> > better words and better forms. > >> > > >> > Even for those who know nothing of logic, programming, conlangery and > >> > who > >> > don't speak anything but their only native language. > >> > > >> > Like that Hajiloji website. > >> > > >> > >> Yes, you need of course a website like Hajiloji, but my subject here > >> is only the next version of CLL, not the elementary courses. > > > > > > Oh, sorry then. No, I don't have any revolutionary plans regarding CLL. > The > > Errata page and the github repo are IMO the main places to discuss > anything > > related to the content of CLL. > > > > I beg you to read the whole message before responding each lines. > > It relieves my anxious that you don't plan to destroy CLL. How ever, > you have already removed from CLL2.0 "voi" and "observative" that are > not yet agreed by BPFK. We will be able to remove your push and save > only the other's fruitful pushes in the future, but I rather prefer > that you make only comments on lines, and don't touch the contents > before agreement by BPFK. I really hate your dictatorship (sorry, I > have no other word to qualify your various activities). > Yes, I edit that branch. CLL 2.0 is a purely unofficial unstable draft so that we can get at least some feedback. What is the official BPFK repository for CLL? What is even the next version of CLL? Isn't it CLL 1.5 ? Why do you think the next edition is CLL 2.0 and that I'm editing what is supposed to become the next edition? In the mailing list I proposed it to be downgraded in future to CLL 1.5. *I ask questions, you don't reply. So what am I supposed to think of that?* In fact it was me who proposed using that branch for upgrading CLL *but no one replied*. This means that branch is not official so I don't even have any excuses. 1. If you want that CLL 2.0 branch to be official (which I also want) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE reply to the corresponding BPFK message. Or make your own proposal. 2. After that we can discuss how to apply commits to it and make that policy official too. I wanted to make commits so that BPFK can vote for all of them at once. If there is some disagreement then using cross division they can be split into smaller parts. If another proposal wins, namely, vote over each pull request that's fine to me too. --001a11423e00938fcd0527b35062 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-12-25 5:33 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:
2015-12-24 14:= 46 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
>
>
> 2015-12-24 17:33 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:
>>
>> 2015-12-24 13:30 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
>> >
>> >
>> > 2015-12-24 16:08 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2015-12-23 6:55 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
>> >> >
>> >> > I'd rather say that Lojban is very far from ling= uistics, even
>> >> > polyglots
>> >> > and
>> >> > professional linguists can't understand CLL.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Did you take statistics of it? I'm neither linguist n= or polyglot, but
>> >> in my opinion, CLL, even the first version, is the easies= t to
>> >> understand among all the learning materials in English. >> >
>> >
>> > Well, lucky you that you are neither a linguist nor a polyglo= t.
>> > It might be so that polyglots and conlangers
>> >
>> > (ht= tp://conlangery.com/2012/03/19/conlangery-42-practicum-getting-rid-of-adjec= tives/
>> > ) may just expect something written in "normal" lin= guistic terminology.
>> >
>> > I have no idea how and whether they tried to learn Straits Sa= lishan
>> > language
>> > but even the latter at least *seems* to be described in some = set of
>> > terms
>> > usual to linguists.
>> >
>> > And when they don't find it they laugh at it or just thro= w away.
>> > To name the third case (the second is Wikipedia) Andre Muller= on
>> > Facebook
>> > said that after abandoning Lojban he had to read The Crash Co= urse where
>> > the
>> > word "predicate" was not even mentioned at that tim= e and only after that
>> > (having understood the basics) he returned to reading CLL. >> >
>> >
>>
>> OK, so you have no statistics and opine based on your own ideal. >
>
> No stats since too few people ever succeeded.
> And those were their opinions, not mine. You may check themselves. I c= an
> send a link to the post in facebook (the third case).
>
>>
>>
>> We have now two different opinions about CLL:
>> 1. You think that other polyglots and conlangers don't underst= and CLL.
>> 2. Masato, the super-polyglot, and I, the ordinary person, both th= ink
>> that the current CLL is easy to understand.
>
>
> If Masato speaks only English, Chinese and Japanese then he is in usua= l
> sense not a polyglot. 5 languages are usually required.
>
> But he is a programmer and we know that being a programmer is the most=
> common trend among Lojbanists.
>

I simply took your words "he is a hyperpolyglot if..."= ;. I really hate
your responses without consistency.

Off topic: Masato's most fluent languages are Japanese, Chinese and
English, but I know he speaks Cantonese and Korean, maybe he has
knowledge of Hakka Chinese and others.

>>
>>
>> From these very limited information, we can only conclude:
>> 1-1. In order to promote Lojban to other polyglots and conlangers,=
>> some text in terms of linguistics are necessary.
>
>
> Yes.
>
>>
>> 2-1. In order to promote Lojban to super-polyglots and ordinary >> people, the current CLL is enough (though some modifications based= on
>> the development of Lojban are required for the next version).
>
>
> I wouldn't limit anyone in any resources at all. We can't know= beforehand
> life experience of newcomers.
>
> It's much easier than that.
> CLL is to be retained, L4B and la'e {la lojban. mo} are to be eith= er updated
> or abandoned.
> New resources are to be constantly updated, monitored and presented to=
> newcomers.
> I would in every way welcome any new methods of presenting and teachin= g
> Lojban.
>
> After that we can observe some trends and make some conclusions.
>
>>
>> Then, we have only one peaceful solution: you make another book fo= r
>> linguists, and the others brush up CLL for super-polyglots and
>> ordinary people according to the current policy.
>
>
> CLL as it is now is absolutely fine to me. Maybe there is some abuse o= f
> English terminology like "letteral" but in general nothing s= erious is to be
> fixed. One can add a short notice "lo sumti correspond to nouns, = pronouns,
> names in English", and this notice would be enough. I can imagine= this book
> only expanding.
>
> Simply, as la .pycyn. said it's not a textbook :). That's why = people are
> having problems with understanding it.
>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Masato
>> >> Hagiwara, who is fluent in Japanese, Chinese and English,= and also a
>> >> researcher of Natural Language Processing, agreed to my o= pinion.
>> >
>> >
>> > Oh well, how many people on Earth are like Masato Hagiwara? >> > He is a hyperpolyglot if you consider programming languages a= s
>> > languages.
>> >
>> > We need to extend Lojban presence by repacking its learning r= esources
>> > into
>> > better words and better forms.
>> >
>> > Even for those who know nothing of logic, programming, conlan= gery and
>> > who
>> > don't speak anything but their only native language.
>> >
>> > Like that Hajiloji website.
>> >
>>
>> Yes, you need of course a website like Hajiloji, but my subject he= re
>> is only the next version of CLL, not the elementary courses.
>
>
> Oh, sorry then. No, I don't have any revolutionary plans regarding= CLL. The
> Errata page and the github repo are IMO=C2=A0 the main places to discu= ss anything
> related to the content of CLL.
>

I beg you to read the whole message before responding each line= s.

It relieves my anxious that you don't plan to destroy CLL. How ever, you have already removed from CLL2.0 "voi" and "observative&= quot; that are
not yet agreed by BPFK. We will be able to remove your push and save
only the other's fruitful pushes in the future, but I rather prefer
that you make only comments on lines, and don't touch the contents
before agreement by BPFK. I really hate your dictatorship (sorry, I
have no other word to qualify your various activities).

Yes, I edit that branch. CLL 2.0 is a purely unofficial un= stable draft so that we can get at least some feedback.
What= is the official BPFK repository for CLL?
What is even the next v= ersion of CLL?
Isn't it CLL 1.5 ?

Wh= y do you think the next edition is CLL 2.0 and that I'm editing what is= supposed to become the next edition? In the mailing list I proposed it to = be downgraded in future to CLL 1.5.

I ask= questions, you don't reply. So what am I supposed to think of that?

In fact it was me who proposed using that branch= for upgrading CLL=C2=A0but no one replied.
This means= that branch is not official so I don't even have any excuses.

1. If you want that CLL 2.0 branch to be official (which I= also want) PLEASE=C2=A0PLEASE=C2=A0PLEASE=C2=A0reply to the corresponding = BPFK=C2=A0message. Or make your own proposal.
2. After that we ca= n discuss how to apply commits to it and make that policy official too.

I wanted to make commits so that BPFK can vote f= or all of them at once.
If there is some disagreement then using = cross division they can be split into smaller parts.
If ano= ther proposal wins, namely, vote over each pull request that's fine to = me too.
--001a11423e00938fcd0527b35062-- --===============4671573343651650832== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --===============4671573343651650832==--