Received: from localhost ([::1]:39902 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aEdgR-0002lR-Rs; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 05:54:27 -0800 Received: from mail-io0-f182.google.com ([209.85.223.182]:35829) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aEdgL-0002kX-By for llg-members@lojban.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 05:54:25 -0800 Received: by mail-io0-f182.google.com with SMTP id 77so63766009ioc.2 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 05:54:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=246cctJwQb6nW0vbX8PsYwZDVdMu5WB9q/jHSaeqrig=; b=h8+RiBWaAWENf1K2BhYJj49mMSV0LYHLuOH+RdkyaDFddAGpxkrdamUV20zp57NrUK MjNEknjbcM4W27H7KB/8Hn0iYHtAs4HuuW/uZp84EBunN3Znh0RGFNfxEEOh+S8+kpzf ubIP4pH/2icsDuDIwVqQwSAXrvMJVk3aiZInoCHTQzBxo5fYRI4vhhKKjzByf669JAhB rP3yTVA15oyxT3v8zzrd3ciccPSzSgSQ0cWMNP3HndnBxd7caCmBnkFCf53vsqRIBAeU YIzJnjo3TMC15RyCEGGe0F68YmV9jPwcFmiLoLaxhaLiZ18fTSQeey2NjdA0hEGXW4YO 4d/A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.185.133 with SMTP id j127mr70688191iof.91.1451570055504; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 05:54:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.227.2 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 05:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.227.2 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 05:54:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20151231133103.GA20974@mercury.ccil.org> References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <9AC7ACDB-A395-4564-8340-20876DAB07CA@gmail.com> <8417352.OZs0BEeQn5@caracal> <20151231133103.GA20974@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 13:54:14 +0000 Message-ID: From: And Rosta To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] "Modal" X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0877212297600796701==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============0877212297600796701== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c070a1c867cc7052831fdca --94eb2c070a1c867cc7052831fdca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 31 Dec 2015 13:31, "John Cowan" wrote: > > Pierre Abbat scripsit: > > > In particular, the term "modal" is used in the CLL to mean a preposition > > semantically derived from a brivla (or from "co'e" in the case of "do'e"). In > > linguistics, "modal" means words like "ka'e". > > Modals are at the same time prepositions, adverbs, and subordinating > conjunctions. They are of course modeled on the very similar particles of > English, which serve the same roles, > > The 2002 _Cambridge Grammar of the English Language_ boldly uses the term > "preposition" for these English particles, as Otto Jespersen did almost a > century ago. But that certainly wasn't current usage while I was writing > CLL, and is still controversial today. I think "controversial" is inapposite. Grammatical analysis is susceptible to gratuitous irrational conservatism. Only due to gratuitous irrational conservatism is the traditional analysis of the particles cleaved to still. One sort of grammatical analysis is guided by taste and tradition; another sort is guided by reason. The controversy exists only between these two, not within the latter. This is not to say that I think Lojban's "modal" should be replaced by "preposition", tho it should certainly be replaced by something. I'd favour a Lojban term. --And. --94eb2c070a1c867cc7052831fdca Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 31 Dec 2015 13:31, "John Cowan" <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> wrote:
>
> Pierre Abbat scripsit:
>
> > In particular, the term "modal" is used in the CLL to m= ean a preposition
> > semantically derived from a brivla (or from "co'e" = in the case of "do'e"). In
> > linguistics, "modal" means words like "ka'e&qu= ot;.
>
> Modals are at the same time prepositions, adverbs, and subordinating > conjunctions.=C2=A0 They are of course modeled on the very similar par= ticles of
> English, which serve the same roles,
>
> The 2002 _Cambridge Grammar of the English Language_ boldly uses the t= erm
> "preposition" for these English particles, as Otto Jespersen= did almost a
> century ago.=C2=A0 But that certainly wasn't current usage while I= was writing
> CLL, and is still controversial today.=C2=A0

I think "controversial" is inapposite. Grammatical= analysis is susceptible to gratuitous irrational conservatism. Only due to= gratuitous irrational conservatism is the traditional analysis of the part= icles cleaved to still. One sort of grammatical analysis is guided by taste= and tradition; another sort is guided by reason. The controversy exists on= ly between these two, not within the latter.

This is not to say that I think Lojban's "modal&quo= t; should be replaced by "preposition", tho it should certainly b= e replaced by something. I'd favour a Lojban term.

--And.

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