Received: from localhost ([::1]:40701 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aEeoa-0000dW-GA; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 07:06:56 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f52.google.com ([74.125.82.52]:35712) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aEeoT-0000cb-97 for llg-members@lojban.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 07:06:54 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f52.google.com with SMTP id f206so65465517wmf.0 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 07:06:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=TTvHMLXn4sNDv4xLhBuWlGlHaMCMWdjblDYfvAmWZVQ=; b=rwe3dcSHAxf5CD29g6UCzBKQl6NQJThuubHdqugmE194zpOGQu490biKjbgzZLSn3g dImQnqlG3GUCyswsBxUlD4GeSrqTn2JMLJPBnSs4w4aonjR0TAE4oAULrWa71b2nVT7A bH7l3vTmvJaauQz4NbQw1PRWKPHEhSwSO4N2tT9ji5OhDsF/5mMAdGM0hZPDCP/eJhQY LJOUIz6Cuy/OWdXIyLtQBQ5M3Ky+C7Tajm2/Wur+VvK0yT6D8T6P41y7BRokjlI0f3nF 9ddZdftldltCvjF1reWNG16o6W7nbTtyFpphLzukr9AOgw/JD4hhvb1VUBN2+pr83X00 zY1g== X-Received: by 10.28.176.70 with SMTP id z67mr82840078wme.5.1451574402414; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 07:06:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.92.136 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 07:06:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20151231142416.GB20974@mercury.ccil.org> References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <9AC7ACDB-A395-4564-8340-20876DAB07CA@gmail.com> <8417352.OZs0BEeQn5@caracal> <20151231133103.GA20974@mercury.ccil.org> <20151231142416.GB20974@mercury.ccil.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 18:06:02 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] "Modal" X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0366158530887298743==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============0366158530887298743== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141259a9f02840528330011 --001a1141259a9f02840528330011 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 If BPFK defines the language in Lojban only and CLL doesn't belong to that definitions then this discussion is of course relevant. If there is an agreement on not using "modal" and using {lo sumtcita} then it's kinda style used in Wave Lessons. https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons I have no objections. I'd suggest still making short explanations saying that in many cases {lo sumtcita} means "preposition like "at", "because of"." as The 2002 Cambridge Grammar of the English Language does according to la balgenpre. Binding Lojban to English is inevitable as long as CLL is in English. Same for even more infamous terms like "verbs" and "nouns": http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/faciliti/wpl/issues/wpl17/papers/16_haspelmath.pdf 2015-12-31 17:24 GMT+03:00 John Cowan : > And Rosta scripsit: > > > I think "controversial" is inapposite. Grammatical analysis is > > susceptible to gratuitous irrational conservatism. Only due to > > gratuitous irrational conservatism is the traditional analysis of the > > particles cleaved to still. > > I quite agree with you, of course. But doubtless our opponents would > say we are engaging in gratuitous irrational conflation of necessary > categories. As Turing said: > > A is liable to believe "A thinks but B does not" whilst B believes > "B thinks but A does not." instead of arguing continually > over this point it is usual to have the polite convention that > everyone thinks. > > by which Turing meant "is conscious", but I mean "is rational". As Nozick > said, instead of trying to prove your opponent wrong, try to understand > in what sense he is right. > > > One sort of grammatical analysis is guided by taste and tradition; > > another sort is guided by reason. The controversy exists only between > > these two, not within the latter. > > I take controversy to be a matter of fact. If I proclaim the world > is round and a great many persons publicly denounce this view, it is > factual to say the claim of the world's rotundity is controversial, > even though it is true that the world is round and not flat. > > > This is not to say that I think Lojban's "modal" should be replaced by > > "preposition", tho it should certainly be replaced by something. I'd > favour > > a Lojban term. > > In hindsight I agree. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > How they ever reached any conclusion at all is starkly unknowable > to the human mind. --"Backstage Lensman", Randall Garrett > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --001a1141259a9f02840528330011 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If BPFK defines the language in Lojban only and CLL doesn&= #39;t belong to that definitions then this discussion is of course relevant= .

If there is an agreement on not using "modal"= ; and using {lo sumtcita} then it's kinda style used in Wave Lessons.

=
I have no objections. I'd suggest still making short exp= lanations saying that in many cases {lo sumtcita} means "preposition l= ike "at", "because of"." as=C2=A0The 2002 Cambridg= e Grammar of the English Language does according to la balgenpre.

Binding Lojban to English is inevitable as long as CLL is i= n English.

Same for even more infamous terms like = "verbs" and "nouns":


2015-12-31 17:24 GMT+03:00 John Cowan <cowan@mer= cury.ccil.org>:
And Rosta s= cripsit:

> I think "controversial" is inapposite. Grammatical analysis = is
> susceptible to gratuitous irrational conservatism. Only due to
> gratuitous irrational conservatism is the traditional analysis of the<= br> > particles cleaved to still.

I quite agree with you, of course.=C2=A0 But doubtless our opponents= would
say we are engaging in gratuitous irrational conflation of necessary
categories.=C2=A0 As Turing said:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A is liable to believe "A thinks but B does not" wh= ilst B believes
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "B thinks but A does not." instead of arguing conti= nually
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over this point it is usual to have the polite convention tha= t
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 everyone thinks.

by which Turing meant "is conscious", but I mean "is rationa= l".=C2=A0 As Nozick
said, instead of trying to prove your opponent wrong, try to understand
in what sense he is right.

> One sort of grammatical analysis is guided by taste and tradition;
> another sort is guided by reason. The controversy exists only between<= br> > these two, not within the latter.

I take controversy to be a matter of fact.=C2=A0 If I proclaim the w= orld
is round and a great many persons publicly denounce this view, it is
factual to say the claim of the world's rotundity is controversial,
even though it is true that the world is round and not flat.

> This is not to say that I think Lojban's "modal" should = be replaced by
> "preposition", tho it should certainly be replaced by someth= ing. I'd favour
> a Lojban term.

In hindsight I agree.

--
John Cowan=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cowan@ccil.o= rg
How they ever reached any conclusion at all is starkly unknowable to the human mind.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --"Backstage Lensman&quo= t;, Randall Garrett

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Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs

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