Received: from localhost ([::1]:50032 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aLgJt-0005dS-85; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:08:17 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f45.google.com ([74.125.82.45]:38031) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aLgJj-0005cJ-MJ for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:08:14 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f45.google.com with SMTP id b14so3730715wmb.1 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:08:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=jpzvIOThTGL3/9AfIcO2DS1dotd30RbQBzWoRCgRaPQ=; b=zRZlWXUHEetFiwxX+8Gnt/vLXgj8EQ5Uy8v9m/KjR4emj1iAOp5w8Tu7W6/Ifs/+2/ 9sS4IbLeM6Xqz1PnE1mVoCEr8FvDvNvlXl+UHHAW0sTHCcD7NIVATmznkmYJ3D+flab1 NBy88VYDsc9ye3Px33EJ/9eKWdiQ0K1qZfavGarCKZEQB6UGyLjCIBQx9qZVKxPh860k 2NHJYSCiG9VZILWo9RunVstdW3ABWRYdz+rjPxy/51+OCLTbxPI/A61ETYSxkxfE3l7L ILHBqcKBwA2dt/CozD8hXP9devDv2RCvTtLPKR1lEn7AFS/IlvYhwZ2KRBMq2xruL3kS D4Ww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=jpzvIOThTGL3/9AfIcO2DS1dotd30RbQBzWoRCgRaPQ=; b=KBh0iK/UpYFPMTKrVXlyPs6dyfjcZxZ/opvCHXnLj2I+Fr6DDKU9EYnkAIeVEBzEsu BoBVk1yruJyr/UDvzzbDkLaOR9JPI/UnZLJqEOYxmKBsDy29Y2xS2E6wTDCUr2e0lWUP n9J5+kzTaafWAeskeP/N4xEn3/i3WY8m5u3yzkdKCMkMOQ/ZE4oSnoSXj9YA82MLFK17 R5UmA2H6+4F019LzTEaUTTPEm+1cMG3xTFYZomPzP3FP/AnNgzy6bUoyOl1JXSQvRWqV xWxTcu2wUmCWYxaCYVGVTcn0hA9VMtOrfUCZhtT4OSQ/1nwQp8wVIgYBRQtOLeyMTApj h7lw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl/MigiWWS49Jf1oYVjQkLBkcZYBWa57hoyrekuZ2P2DLTlWqdL5Jd7iuSE9nnxBZR3VOZQJdVcbnBAg8/i4omFHKmCPQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.195.13.129 with SMTP id ey1mr32050035wjd.132.1453248481096; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.27.47.8 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:08:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <20151231142416.GB20974@mercury.ccil.org> <29657176.PZYJ2CWSdF@caracal> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 19:08:01 -0500 Message-ID: From: Curtis Franks To: "llg-members@lojban.org" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] "Modal" X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2253635989682411879==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============2253635989682411879== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bb04c0a7c80780529b8c784 --047d7bb04c0a7c80780529b8c784 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I agree with the general sentiment that "modal" is bad and I think that we should use purely Lojbanic terminology in the main treatment of the material, offering translations and explanations in other languages (definitely including the primary non-Lojban language of the resource at hand) upon introduction of the concepts. I also believe that sumtcita-hood is a role and not a class of words, although I and others often do not make the distinction (which is entirely our fault and should be fixed for any careful, instructive or official presentation of this material- so that future generations think in properly precise terms). I suppose that "tcita valsi" or "tcityvla" could work as names for the general class of cmavo that sometimes function as sumtcita (and possibly includes other markers as well). On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 3:36 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2016-01-04 7:59 GMT+03:00 Pierre Abbat : > >> On Monday, January 04, 2016 03:09:58 guskant wrote: >> > I'm not fluent in English, but I have impression that "preposition" >> > may include all tags BAI, PU, FAhA and so on. I agree that the use of >> > the word "modal" is a source of misunderstanding, and that some proper >> > explanation for BAI is necessary for the purpose of linguist-friendly >> > description on the language, though we don't need any words other than >> > "BAI" for BAI for the purpose of language design itself. >> >> "Preposition" does indeed include tense markers (PU, FAhA, ZI, VA, etc.) >> as >> well as BAI, which I call "proper prepositions". I don't consider FA to be >> prepositions > > > Neither would I. Despite its extreme similarity to BAI. > > It's better to first invent correct words encompassing needed lo selma'o > or lo selma'okle. > > {cmavrfa} or {fa zei cmavo} or just "particles of FA series" is a better > alternative. > But one needs to add "particles of FA series work LIKE prepositions". > > > >> , but I'm willing to entertain a quibble based on Spanish "a", >> which tags personal (or animate) direct objects as well as (animate or >> inanimate) indirect objects, and is also a preposition meaning "at" or >> "to". >> >> Some languages have postpositions or other kinds of adpositions. These are >> also covered by the term "sumtcita". >> >> Pierre >> >> -- >> ve ka'a ro klaji la .romas. se jmaji >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --047d7bb04c0a7c80780529b8c784 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with the general sentiment that "modal" = is bad and I think that we should use purely Lojbanic terminology in the ma= in treatment of the material, offering translations and explanations in oth= er languages (definitely including the primary non-Lojban language of the r= esource at hand) upon introduction of the concepts.=C2=A0 I also believe th= at sumtcita-hood is a role and not a class of words, although I and others = often do not make the distinction (which is entirely our fault and should b= e fixed for any careful, instructive or official presentation of this mater= ial- so that future generations think in properly precise terms).=C2=A0 I s= uppose that "tcita valsi" or "tcityvla" could work as n= ames for the general class of cmavo that sometimes function as sumtcita (an= d possibly includes other markers as well).

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 3:36 AM, Gleki Arxok= una <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


=
2016-01-04 7:59 GMT+03:00 Pierr= e Abbat <phma@leaf.dragonflybsd.org>:
On Monday, January 04, 2016 03:09:58 guskant wro= te:
> I'm not fluent in English, but I have impression that "prepos= ition"
> may include all tags BAI, PU, FAhA and so on. I agree that the use of<= br> > the word "modal" is a source of misunderstanding, and that s= ome proper
> explanation for BAI is necessary for the purpose of linguist-friendly<= br> > description on the language, though we don't need any words other = than
> "BAI" for BAI for the purpose of language design itself.

"Preposition" does indeed include tense markers (PU, FAhA,= ZI, VA, etc.) as
well as BAI, which I call "proper prepositions". I don't cons= ider FA to be
prepositions

Neither would I. Despit= e its extreme similarity to BAI.

It's better t= o first invent correct words encompassing needed lo selma'o or lo selma= 'okle.

{cmavrfa} or {fa zei cmavo} or just &qu= ot;particles of FA series" is a better alternative.
But one = needs to add "particles of FA series work LIKE prepositions".

=C2=A0
, but I'm willing to entertain a quibble based on Spanish "= a",
which tags personal (or animate) direct objects as well as (animate or
inanimate) indirect objects, and is also a preposition meaning "at&quo= t; or "to".

Some languages have postpositions or other kinds of adpositions. These are<= br> also covered by the term "sumtcita".

Pierre

--
ve ka'a ro klaji la .romas. se jmaji


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