Received: from localhost ([::1]:58862 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e1H7X-0007wj-EK; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:20:15 -0700 Received: from mail-ua0-f181.google.com ([209.85.217.181]:47895) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e1H70-0007Nq-MW for llg-members@lojban.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:19:44 -0700 Received: by mail-ua0-f181.google.com with SMTP id e46so7548440uaa.4 for ; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:19:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Fic2UbGO5ck8wJuQW5Hpa/uEfNRfoYQD0UTTY4PxthI=; b=FxIsqXYhoqviQUN12aeCXdC4Pkh6SXhNTKEmp05uIBI+jJ4wXY6dYawGsPCMcOp6JJ fAEV1sw6rI8jpo68JFf0sJHXqfe3epQ5Ub9nRrbb6EcnYzWp5k6qzm2a1kkF/ENsqdL3 qp84Gtp3medrRyWTTzMC13z14bD4AiEVYi4x7ViL+xsqqQKiaN60+cufVRDfYgT0+zeI PVNF13It2lHXFUJ4/rDQWghMIFAlzh2hbI3rubvXR1T4wXKjeJ/HMClg45uZSd8kWtfM i5ohVjAEctlVaOpKv8yRQx5SAn9FqSX5uZSVMz4KosILiSTzq7XIHweZoJAgRlbTNGFH wZyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Fic2UbGO5ck8wJuQW5Hpa/uEfNRfoYQD0UTTY4PxthI=; b=LweSzgMf7bPBDxnD/+ujAbCCR4y7xDnt9btK4/WYXAf7vRjdI6atdPvadOQyKyBDZv lQ1TK1FNSRKmCv0rjVYG6GwOnbrW0wgbNqccBpyih2zlcW/JmYD00Cdb33BK7n+6QUrZ l0K8a+8jLKT4Ypk5oockaiMOb6ymDsi9FSjJwj0fyMT+We3ioshmYPZqNMvp658pBfwM 6FS2DXS55WSEpb0yUVtlH2ZQ0aroFwlOK9H2XxtAAN8tFV0xwi/jLUkeEJf4gcsM0y2m ypr8WmbGBCGAnbrg36mcbUSM538v0qaOJ/CaZreboKF88bqu04mZfPUiqdj7MtpSy2FC uo0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaW8eNHFLRZg3b3taG+rb/M5/+PhPdNe7L65CulAadRuFpScvDPF 2nF4TSLVXW66jL7JmVfPYA1fKCj8KZj4Jr4Ldx4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QCJm4n9NMT+37Ngqx3vHWsGHw4m0Rj+AVsD0nTx4UyAE3PWJx46QtAJLWGnK5yMmusvMoPpYVNj+aiDqgouZTs= X-Received: by 10.159.60.147 with SMTP id s19mr4466400uai.123.1507490375700; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:19:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.18.213 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 12:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.176.18.213 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 12:19:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Creative Care Services Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2017 15:19:35 -0400 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Topics for discussion, old and new X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4472478002406635316==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============4472478002406635316== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045ed98a589604055b0df422" --f403045ed98a589604055b0df422 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I am doing my best to record all the topics as they come in. I hope others are as well so we can have them ready to address. . karis. On Oct 4, 2017 03:53, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: As for Lojban as a cognolang... *AtomSpace* Roman Treutlin continues working on English2Lojban converter but the machine interlingua he uses (AtomSpace) might be underdeveloped, which was shown by inability to parse made {ko'a .a ba bo ko'e} constructs so fixes had to be done to Atomese language itself. Roman made a chat bot for Lojban together with required modules for AtomSpace: https://github.com/rTreutlein/LojbanChatBot but it used PEG grammar [and not any more la tersmu] to parse text which obscured cognitive transparency of the project (well, English language is equally terribly analyzed in this project and AtomSpace is the best humanity has by far implemented). *Unambiguity is banal.* Lojban development looks like it's a programming language. a. unambiguous syntax will save you! b. ok, it seems not enough. But type checking will save you! c. well, not enough. What's next? Well, obviously property-based testing and dependent types but the problem here is that Coq/Agda/Idris/Scala's shapeless are by themselves in their infancy. Nevertheless, we'll have to deal with that one day. By the way, the most technically rude polymorphism of terbri places was proposed by Curtis by having a switch in one terbricmi that would specify what another terbricmi of the same predicate can be filled with. But in general Lojban and natural languages are already that way if e.g. mlatu1 and gerku1 are of different types. *Transpiling into proglangs.* la ramcinfo made a few sketches in regard to transpiling Lojban into programming languages: https://mw.lojban.org/papri/User:Ramcinfo/lojbo_staile_liste #Inspired_by_programming_languages although this is not even a working app (as compared e.g. to an older Yoshikun's la lojysamban app) No bridges to RDF or other knowledge representation languages are in development. *PEG?*In parsing Lojban grammar nothing exceeding PEG in power has yet been implemented despite the existence of lots of facilities already used for programming languages. In fact the main goal over the last years was de facto ... "not doing anything new". PEG was first implemented by la xorxes and Robin improving some things (and deteriorating other things) and unfortunately nothing has improved since that time. *Bridges to other types of languages.* WolframAlpha is a collection of math function in one place with the ability to evaluate them. It's not open source but e.g. Sympy and Sage Math are open source alternatives to it. Problem: quantum physics/many areas of mathematics are not speakable. My explanation: it's a Whorfian effect, English simply doesn't have good words to describe it. Easy solution: jus translate names of quantum theory functions into Lojban with each cmima be le'i terbri specified in its type. Solution: take WolframAlpha's database (or its open source alternative) where functions and concepts are all expressed in one single programming language for the whole database. Write a transpiler of that code into Lojban and back from Lojban. Farther solution: start optimization of this transpiling algorithm so that the language becomes and more usable for humans. As the result we get unification of the language of science and the speakable daily language. I have a feeling that this unification can even have pragmatic effects (no proofs here). *Resume* On general this whole subject of cognolangs and proglangs in respect to Lojban is in its infancy (just like once humans could only say {coi} in their dialogues). _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --f403045ed98a589604055b0df422 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am doing my best to record all the topics as they = come in. I hope others are as well so we can have them ready to address.=C2= =A0

. karis.=C2=A0

On Oct= 4, 2017 03:53, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
As for Lojban as a = cognolang...

AtomSpace

=
Roman Treutlin continues working on English2Lojban converter but the m= achine interlingua he uses (AtomSpace) might be underdeveloped, which was s= hown by inability to parse made {ko'a .a ba bo ko'e} constructs so = fixes had to be done to Atomese language itself.

R= oman made a chat bot for Lojban together with required modules for AtomSpac= e:
<= div>but it used PEG grammar [and not any more la tersmu] to parse text whic= h obscured cognitive transparency of the project (well, English language is= equally terribly analyzed in this project and AtomSpace is the best humani= ty has by far implemented).

Unambiguity is bana= l.

Lojban development looks like it's a pr= ogramming language.=C2=A0
a. unambiguous syntax will save you!=C2= =A0
b. ok, it seems not enough. But type checking will save you!= =C2=A0
c. well, not enough.

What's n= ext? Well, obviously property-based testing and dependent types but the pro= blem here is that Coq/Agda/Idris/Scala's shapeless are by themselves in= their infancy.
Nevertheless, we'll have to deal with that on= e day.
By the way, the most technically rude polymorphism of terb= ri places was proposed by Curtis by having a switch in one terbricmi that w= ould specify what another terbricmi of the same predicate can be filled wit= h. But in general Lojban and natural languages are already that way if e.g.= mlatu1 and gerku1 are of different types.


= Transpiling into proglangs.

la ramcinfo made a few = sketches in regard to transpiling Lojban into programming languages:
https://mw.lojban.org/papri= /User:Ramcinfo/lojbo_staile_liste#Inspired_by_programming_languages=C2=A0although this is not even a working app (as compared e.g. = to an older Yoshikun's la lojysamban app)

= No bridges to RDF or other knowledge representation languages are in develo= pment.

PEG?
In parsing Lojban gramma= r nothing exceeding PEG in power has yet been implemented despite the exist= ence of lots of facilities already used for programming languages.

In fact the main goal over the last years was de facto ...= "not doing anything new". PEG was first implemented by la xorxes= and Robin improving some things (and deteriorating other things) and unfor= tunately nothing has improved since that time.

= Bridges to other types of languages.
WolframAlpha is a collec= tion of math function in one place with the ability to evaluate them.
It's not open source but e.g. Sympy and Sage Math are ope= n source alternatives to it.

Problem: quantu= m physics/many areas of mathematics are not speakable.
M= y explanation: it's a Whorfian effect, English simply doesn't have = good words to describe it.
Easy solution: jus translate names of = quantum theory functions into Lojban with each cmima be le'i terbri spe= cified in its type.
Solution: take WolframAlpha's database (o= r its open source alternative) where functions and concepts are all express= ed in one single programming language for the whole database. Write a trans= piler of that code into Lojban and back from Lojban.
Farther solu= tion: start optimization of this transpiling algorithm so that the language= becomes and more usable for humans.
As the result we get unifica= tion of the language of science and the speakable daily language.=C2=A0

I have a feeling that this unification can even= have pragmatic effects (no proofs here).

Resum= e
On general this whole subject of cognolangs and pr= oglangs in respect to Lojban is in its infancy (just like once humans could= only say {coi} in their dialogues).

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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