Received: from localhost ([::1]:38974 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eSHCL-0001Jb-Ch; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 22:52:49 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f46.google.com ([74.125.82.46]:38095) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eSHBo-0001He-Tk for llg-members@lojban.org; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 22:52:18 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f46.google.com with SMTP id 64so19662169wme.3 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 22:52:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=RL7cWDT8vkdYoPzHUNlpsbD54m1V2qNRb5LTEIW+CaI=; b=FDYf/6nj9qETa/l4Rh5a+c/uWUqzwO4aHQUatHrsVt5EqL9IKq8ITjQvLkHoEe7l8M p3Qyz3Y2peO9mTup+yjRbUHyP/n3KNB888eLGNL3c/oiPYVasvlXBxcw36Rn/KshZQeQ H4UcoLHcsipCeKrh5XwtJBpRcMx0bhh83fkfMIZ08Tf5gwubwFceHm3HLu/gN/RrlHPE RSv5e1zS3moo90FGyyBf91GoCS27JJx7n+KGpn2/kxPK/Jg1Q8YWAJ3b8CQrkEn70imq aSlVXNeOUnK44IPI83a7vSmAbAPLd/o9OwdF2hP8cG/HS93gtWZteq0JphRUsEMQ22YF WkvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=RL7cWDT8vkdYoPzHUNlpsbD54m1V2qNRb5LTEIW+CaI=; b=CtLHPYno5zXqlRvRxNVSrQ7ZHHeODmsor2rI1g8wQvR/bkDIi2nMB/cZnflfaqJRuk e5GLi3wHGKGuncInaYKQ8J2CiHzZ+y4Q/d5VSMQbIUyMTladVXLQmT8tkbyU6M8qfd6N mOvxVInz2CFpIhDDk1EjWz79g0pgHpMMOVWJVAZSr/Cqi7OKpwP7B4KY73OpJw6v4Ch4 5bnQsHma5HWU8j38zNxEwlxK9cBa5R6dvkANuIpLYrCR3/oUULGf4jBjEhY0Bn8vDBvj NpuZflNoyt7M0iCl8NlTjGDqcA3G7VlDOUf+A6jkMuKMmsdQQOJd01GQimO7sF0vUP9P imKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKYBnb4whuI6ycNyo6/rosflVcKRXq3Tv5DkYHNU36gj9hFY+qf uIOQMAGSzyGoNoXMexXFELTEjn/Yk0/lo7Kz+g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotRxwXk1qDcVlXDtsDFPyrGF9RSmbsj8cY3aCPTNklZtT4J33OfO+0ib7tauauZLPG+J/A7kfm7XFBrjI9ehSM= X-Received: by 10.80.147.93 with SMTP id n29mr13277034eda.237.1513925529930; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 22:52:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.173.219 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 22:51:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 09:51:29 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5370527952711169093==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============5370527952711169093== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1a8c0e6d908d0560e8411a" --94eb2c1a8c0e6d908d0560e8411a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2017-12-21 23:27 GMT+03:00 selpahi : > On 21.12.2017 00:36, Creative Care Services wrote: > >> Selpa'i, would you please address both my and Gleki's comments about th= e >> BPFK by briefly explaining it's purpose and the process by which languag= e >> decisions are made (within the BPFK) and formalized (by LLG). >> > > The purpose, powers and obligations of the BPFK are outlined here: > > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Reauthorization This document has no details on voting process. > > > The BPFK has been using a very informal way of voting, opting to achieve > agreements via discussions rather than just voting and ignoring the > minority opinion. What happens if only one person proposes something nobody replies? What are the duties of the Chair of BPFK? Unfortunately, some members are so inactive that they basically have to be > kicked in the butt to even participate. For what? If there are no formal rules then they are not obliged to do anything. Maybe such members should be penalized or removed, but no such thing has > been suggested. Some members are also blocking progress by categorically > saying no to changes but don't properly bring forth any good arguments. > As if they must have any argument. > > The BPFK also occasionally gets attacked for certain decisions ("they are > assholes"), for example for the ban on consonant+glide combinations, but > also for much lesser things. > In which form does BPFK gets attacked? If it's spam in the main mailing list then certain rules need to be developed to remove such content. > > As a general point, I'm finding it very difficult to be doing any BPFK > work during this day and age, because Lojban has changed so much and > continues to change, and it is not at all clear what the BPFK should choo= se > as its point of reference and as its goals. The cmavo definitions need to > be improved, but for that we need to know what the cmavo mean *today*. A > lot of time has passed between the first phase of BPFK work and the secon= d > phase (after its reauthorization). > > There's a lot I want to talk about, but I'm currently sick in bed and do > not have the energy to compose a complete email. I would welcome an open > discussion both by members and non-members (of the BPFK). > > I intended to write a long rant about Lojban's death. 2017 was a pretty > bad year for Lojban. Some of you who followed my monthly community round-= up > posts on my blog (https://solpahi.wordpress.com/) will have noticed that > I discontinued the series. This is because there simply was no more to ta= lk > about. > > Lojban is dead. > > The BPFK is dead, the LLG is dead. These meetings are nothing more than > something the LLG must do once a year, but everyone dreads the meetings a= nd > they never achieve anything useful. > > That's why I was going to propose that LLG dissolve itself according to > Article 11 of the Bylaws (https://mw.lojban.org/papri/LLG_Bylaws_(2007)). > If you think LLG should not dissolve itself, then you should be able to s= ay > why. Find good reasons why we need the LLG, because if you don't find any > good reasons, it will continue to be pointless. > > The LLG *could* regain some usefulness if it actually did what the Bylaws > state as its purpose. > > "Article 2 Section 1. Purpose: The Logical Language Group, Inc. is > established to promote the scientific study of the relationships between > language, thought and human culture; to investigate the nature of languag= e > and to determine the requirements for an artificially-engineered natural > language; to implement and experiment with such a language; to devise and > promote applications for this language in fields including but not limite= d > to linguistics, psychology, philosophy, logic, mathematics, computer > science, anthropology, sociology, education, and human biology; to conduc= t > and support experimental and scholarly research in these fields as they m= ay > bear upon the problems of artificial language development; to communicate > with and to educate interested persons and organizations about these > activities; to devise and develop means and instruments needed for these > activities; and to accumulate and publish the results of such studies and > developments. In the furtherance of these purposes, and in addition to th= e > above activities, The Logical Language Group, Inc. may award grants to > individuals for experimentation, travel, publication, study and similar > activities. " > > Note that this does not mention Lojban at all. In fact, the only time the > word "lojban" even appears in the Bylaws is the alternative "trade name" > "Lojbangirz" as another name for the LLG. > > If the LLG did serious research, work on, and promotion of logical > languages *in general*, then it could actually of use to the world. Lojba= n > is but one of many logical languages and it certainly isn't the best at > achieving the goals it is stated to be designed to achieve. The developme= nt > of an "ideal loglang" is an interesting and difficult problem that has no= t > been solved yet, but there have been some promising attempts. There are > also a few very knowledgeable (on the topic of logical language design) o= n > the CONLANG-L mailing list, including, of course, And Rosta. The LLG coul= d > work together with those people. > > If this seems too crazy and if the LLG must stick to Lojban, then it need= s > to find a way to be useful to us Lojbanists. I don't know how it could do > that, but that's why I want people who think the LLG should keep existing > to speak up. > > > ~~~mi'e la selpa'i > > > > > > --- > Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --94eb2c1a8c0e6d908d0560e8411a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2017-12-21 23:27 GMT+03:00 selpahi <selpahi@selpahi.de>= :
On 21.12.2017 00:36, C= reative Care Services wrote:
Selpa'i, would you please address both my and Gleki's comments=C2= =A0 about the BPFK by briefly explaining it's purpose and the process b= y which language decisions are made (within the BPFK) and formalized (by LL= G).

 The purpose, powers and obligations of the BPFK are outlined here:

https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Reauthorizatio= n

This document has no details on votin= g process.
=C2=A0


The BPFK has been using a very informal way of voting, opting to achieve ag= reements via discussions rather than just voting and ignoring the minority = opinion.

What happens if only one person pr= oposes something nobody replies?

What are the duti= es of=C2=A0 the Chair of BPFK?


Unfortunately, some members are so inactive that the= y basically have to be kicked in the butt to even participate.=

For what? If there are no formal rules then they are no= t obliged to do anything.


The BPFK also occasionally gets attacked for certain decisions ("they = are assholes"), for example for the ban on consonant+glide combination= s, but also for much lesser things.

In = which form does BPFK gets attacked? If it's spam in the main mailing li= st then certain rules need to be developed to remove such content.
=C2=A0

As a general point, I'm finding it very difficult to be doing any BPFK = work during this day and age, because Lojban has changed so much and contin= ues to change, and it is not at all clear what the BPFK should choose as it= s point of reference and as its goals. The cmavo definitions need to be imp= roved, but for that we need to know what the cmavo mean *today*. A lot of t= ime has passed between the first phase of BPFK work and the second phase (a= fter its reauthorization).

There's a lot I want to talk about, but I'm currently sick in bed a= nd do not have the energy to compose a complete email. I would welcome an o= pen discussion both by members and non-members (of the BPFK).

I intended to write a long rant about Lojban's death. 2017 was a pretty= bad year for Lojban. Some of you who followed my monthly community round-u= p posts on my blog (https://solpahi.wordpress.com/) will have= noticed that I discontinued the series. This is because there simply was n= o more to talk about.

Lojban is dead.

The BPFK is dead, the LLG is dead. These meetings are nothing more than som= ething the LLG must do once a year, but everyone dreads the meetings and th= ey never achieve anything useful.

That's why I was going to propose that LLG dissolve itself according to= Article 11 of the Bylaws (https://mw.lojban.org/papri/= LLG_Bylaws_(2007)). If you think LLG should not dissolve itself, t= hen you should be able to say why. Find good reasons why we need the LLG, b= ecause if you don't find any good reasons, it will continue to be point= less.

The LLG *could* regain some usefulness if it actually did what the Bylaws s= tate as its purpose.

"Article 2 Section 1. Purpose: The Logical Language Group, Inc. is est= ablished to promote the scientific study of the relationships between langu= age, thought and human culture; to investigate the nature of language and t= o determine the requirements for an artificially-engineered natural languag= e; to implement and experiment with such a language; to devise and promote = applications for this language in fields including but not limited to lingu= istics, psychology, philosophy, logic, mathematics, computer science, anthr= opology, sociology, education, and human biology; to conduct and support ex= perimental and scholarly research in these fields as they may bear upon the= problems of artificial language development; to communicate with and to ed= ucate interested persons and organizations about these activities; to devis= e and develop means and instruments needed for these activities; and to acc= umulate and publish the results of such studies and developments. In the fu= rtherance of these purposes, and in addition to the above activities, The L= ogical Language Group, Inc. may award grants to individuals for experimenta= tion, travel, publication, study and similar activities. "

Note that this does not mention Lojban at all. In fact, the only time the w= ord "lojban" even appears in the Bylaws is the alternative "= trade name" "Lojbangirz" as another name for the LLG.

If the LLG did serious research, work on, and promotion of logical language= s *in general*, then it could actually of use to the world. Lojban is but o= ne of many logical languages and it certainly isn't the best at achievi= ng the goals it is stated to be designed to achieve. The development of an = "ideal loglang" is an interesting and difficult problem that has = not been solved yet, but there have been some promising attempts. There are= also a few very knowledgeable (on the topic of logical language design) on= the CONLANG-L mailing list, including, of course, And Rosta. The LLG could= work together with those people.

If this seems too crazy and if the LLG must stick to Lojban, then it needs = to find a way to be useful to us Lojbanists. I don't know how it could = do that, but that's why I want people who think the LLG should keep exi= sting to speak up.


~~~mi'e la selpa'i





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http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members

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