Received: from localhost ([::1]:44112 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eSSBQ-0000dP-Ft; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:36:36 -0800 Received: from mail-yb0-f173.google.com ([209.85.213.173]:33680) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eSSAt-0000cS-VK for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:36:05 -0800 Received: by mail-yb0-f173.google.com with SMTP id c15so9508320ybl.0 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:36:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=53DS0yQj/K1dfTSJp3q79qnhQuCRw4oO96AkrVsahwU=; b=H33817hngFP5CDKroHH9znvJV/eHLOiiptRUzfZgVXyw2l/bB2ow4qPDSeNmYtwO67 rJwIYpsA1ywA6fOuTbVlpoVDIIR7MHvYV5ieRTml0jn9RCtBO/LtFx+4TOPJt4/KVW6/ 5vht/FmlTBCTPQfFQwrn4pp2uxgUlwHUXQdeYL+gNKX6d5TvJ9bdM5MKFX3qtCEiX3Gt dxA0u77HL20PffpAIJMat5i8k0Ohmhj0lJ7dnQSUr2Zibth33MspdiUCixiDMEsOycq4 Zk48MMiwt7VXODy4iZuijSw9FdI38ZrHdGwYBGq7/omhlY/CSQgUQHxnov/x/pD/nfDa NJ3g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=53DS0yQj/K1dfTSJp3q79qnhQuCRw4oO96AkrVsahwU=; b=Ri4iF30l5BccYIwQ5toT5mbFqw23RCndi4pQhYhkNhrWrXYNuUkpel4DwuI1+VKbSq 1pi/84o5byUKNhPOUODwDKfi0B8vxCmaOQh54AtxDAYzNcB1CtyCmDk+X+mV4vxWnz4N g5nDDPMvdEVmTSVp+eK0h1Q4FLiyLHA+hLgxFEp44/7LBFmcHngyeHwpU7CTH/o+tY84 YqSEOIEyKm39K6eShE5sQ+z5ZOmY+PDg5soXaNj3EAIK7t6FTK39R9harulV52/F+vgt JLSyLhcU+zMnL1sHHPfleBLpUZLnLQvv80g32zQCCv7VxjZlIx7e5I1Lgp2ERaQ5U0Jp TdUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mK2xBMKDraVB5+ZDOktgv7pbJfTc3QvYB4+QoTUCxPfSncdwk+c uLyj4gXS/xh5Psw0+QoM7oNi5YAR4d0KYfLEMZs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovFwgww8TiZXuJmRx6IAHPN2EXz+RWYNTyJG1+rQdxz8DJATyQRTbo1dB+x9SPA4kntmYZZ7kqE3R3dZPiqNX0= X-Received: by 10.37.187.197 with SMTP id c5mr11163075ybk.36.1513967757401; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:35:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 10:35:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <92D76729-D752-4738-BF24-2D5A6A0ACD4F@gmail.com> <0c93ad4b-af16-779b-229c-be364311fe23@selpahi.de> From: Curtis Franks Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 13:35:56 -0500 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1995620133738786234==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============1995620133738786234== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043d9f1461a34d0560f21603" --f403043d9f1461a34d0560f21603 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do recall such lists, yes. :) On Dec 22, 2017 13:03, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: > > > 2017-12-22 20:58 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : > >> Okay, rather than just arguing about declarations and assertions >> regarding the state of Lojban, I think that we can all agree that - >> regardless of its current state - we want it to have more and 'sufficien= t' >> energy. >> >> What concrete steps can we take in order to make this happen? >> > > 1. Write out a list of todo things > 2. Start working of any of them separately or collectively. Better > separately. > > In fact such a list exists, isn't it? ;) > > And also > > 3. Vote less. Or else we get "51% of members think that Newton's laws are > incorrect, abandon them". More science, less votings. > > > > >> >> On Dec 22, 2017 12:46, "selpahi" wrote: >> >> On 21.12.2017 23:33, Riley Lynch wrote: >> >>> Lojban is bigger than any one person, be that lojbab or selpahi or >>> anybody else, and can't be simply declared dead. >>> >> >> I am not simply declaring it dead. The many reasons that lead to this >> state that Lojban is in simply leave no other verdict than the one I >> expressed. If this verdict seems to come out of the blue to anyone, then= it >> most likely means that that person is quite out of touch with Lojban (th= is >> is not directed at you specifically), or =E2=80=94and this another legit= imate >> explanation=E2=80=94 they simply don't have any expectations or hopes of= Lojban >> ever doing great as a human language. >> >> One should not mistake my "declaration" as me wanting Lojban to be >> abandoned. Instead, this sentiment (which plenty of people share!) is bo= rn >> out of repeated disappointment. I love Lojban to death, and I have had t= o >> witness it fall apart for years. >> >> Watching the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan is >> nothing short of painful, and, frankly speaking, disillusioning. But the= re >> is a point when pain turns into indifference, and I have finally reached >> that point. I cannot give and give and give and see no good come from it= . >> There's a point where even the craziest supporters of a thing must take = a >> step back and ask if it's all worth it. >> >> Lojban's community and history is unique, in good ways and in bad ways. = I >> recently read an old mailing list and the scales fell from my eyes. >> Lojban's history is the history of a community self-imprisonment and >> self-chastisement. Throughout all these years the community has known ab= out >> Lojban's problems and shortcomings, yet the same community chose time an= d >> again to let some crazy rules about a "baseline" ruin any chance of >> progress. Respecting those people's wish for baseline conformity, we are >> now not much further than we were then. Not only did it stifle progress, >> those same people didn't even stay around to keep using their "saved" >> Lojban. It was all a waste of time. >> >> I truly believe that it is the people who thought they were saving Lojba= n >> from changing too fast that effectively killed it. >> >> I am also no longer able to buy into the business of piecemeal patches t= o >> Lojban as a means of fixing it. Either leave Lojban as it is and watch i= t >> die, or fix its problems *for real*, taking no prisoners. Bob and the >> others forked Loglan, changed it, and then spent years trying to convinc= e >> people that change is bad and a fork (usually called "schism") is the wo= rst >> thing that can happen. It's hypocritical. >> >> I'd like to end this email with a quote by And Rosta, who recently said >> something I've been saying for years, too: >> >> "A complicating factor is that not only is the community divided into >> those who care about logic and those who don't (and can therefore favour >> CLL Lojban), those who care about logic are in turn divided into those w= ho >> want to make the minimum changes to CLL Lojban to sort out the logical >> issues and those who think that if you're going to make any changes at a= ll >> then you might as well fix some of the most egregious design flaws in or= der >> to make the language much more user-friendly. Essentially the two positi= ons >> weigh the effort invested by the few people who have learnt CLL thorough= ly >> against the much larger but more hypothetical number who might learn and >> use Lojban in future." >> >> >> ~~mi'e la selpa'i >> >> --- >> Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --f403043d9f1461a34d0560f21603 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I do recall such lists, yes. :)

On Dec 22, 2017 13:03, "Gleki Ar= xokuna" <gleki.is.my.= name@gmail.com> wrote:


2017-12-22 20:58 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks &l= t;curtis.w.f= ranks@gmail.com>:
Okay, rather than just arguing about declaratio= ns and assertions regarding the state of Lojban, I think that we can all ag= ree that - regardless of its current state - we want it to have more and &#= 39;sufficient' energy.

What concrete steps can we take in order to make this happen?
<= /div>

1. Write out a list of todo things
2. Start working of any of them separately or collectively. Better = separately.

In fact such a list exists, isn't = it? ;)

And also

3. Vote l= ess. Or else we get "51% of members think that Newton's laws are i= ncorrect, abandon them". More science, less votings.


=C2=A0
On Dec 22, 2017 12:46, "selpahi" <= selpahi@selpahi.de<= /a>> wrote:
On 21.12.2017 23:33, Riley Lynch wrote:
Lojban is bigger than any one person, be that lojbab or selpahi or anybody = else, and can't be simply declared dead.

I am not simply declaring it dead. The many reasons that lead to this state= that Lojban is in simply leave no other verdict than the one I expressed. = If this verdict seems to come out of the blue to anyone, then it most likel= y means that that person is quite out of touch with Lojban (this is not dir= ected at you specifically), or =E2=80=94and this another legitimate explana= tion=E2=80=94 they simply don't have any expectations or hopes of Lojba= n ever doing great as a human language.

One should not mistake my "declaration" as me wanting Lojban to b= e abandoned. Instead, this sentiment (which plenty of people share!) is bor= n out of repeated disappointment. I love Lojban to death, and I have had to= witness it fall apart for years.

Watching the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan is nothing= short of painful, and, frankly speaking, disillusioning. But there is a po= int when pain turns into indifference, and I have finally reached that poin= t. I cannot give and give and give and see no good come from it. There'= s a point where even the craziest supporters of a thing must take a step ba= ck and ask if it's all worth it.

Lojban's community and history is unique, in good ways and in bad ways.= I recently read an old mailing list and the scales fell from my eyes. Lojb= an's history is the history of a community self-imprisonment and self-c= hastisement. Throughout all these years the community has known about Lojba= n's problems and shortcomings, yet the same community chose time and ag= ain to let some crazy rules about a "baseline" ruin any chance of= progress. Respecting those people's wish for baseline conformity, we a= re now not much further than we were then. Not only did it stifle progress,= those same people didn't even stay around to keep using their "sa= ved" Lojban. It was all a waste of time.

I truly believe that it is the people who thought they were saving Lojban f= rom changing too fast that effectively killed it.

I am also no longer able to buy into the business of piecemeal patches to L= ojban as a means of fixing it. Either leave Lojban as it is and watch it di= e, or fix its problems *for real*, taking no prisoners. Bob and the others = forked Loglan, changed it, and then spent years trying to convince people t= hat change is bad and a fork (usually called "schism") is the wor= st thing that can happen. It's hypocritical.

I'd like to end this email with a quote by And Rosta, who recently said= something I've been saying for years, too:

"A complicating factor is that not only is the community divided into = those who care about logic and those who don't (and can therefore favou= r CLL Lojban), those who care about logic are in turn divided into those wh= o want to make the minimum changes to CLL Lojban to sort out the logical is= sues and those who think that if you're going to make any changes at al= l then you might as well fix some of the most egregious design flaws in ord= er to make the language much more user-friendly. Essentially the two positi= ons weigh the effort invested by the few people who have learnt CLL thoroug= hly against the much larger but more hypothetical number who might learn an= d use Lojban in future."


~~mi'e la selpa'i

---
Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members

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