Received: from localhost ([::1]:46942 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eTv1T-0001BL-1Y; Tue, 26 Dec 2017 11:36:23 -0800 Received: from eastrmfepo101.cox.net ([68.230.241.213]:48652) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eTv0w-00019d-J2 for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 26 Dec 2017 11:35:51 -0800 Received: from eastrmimpo109.cox.net ([68.230.241.222]) by eastrmfepo101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.01.05.28 201-2260-151-171-20160122) with ESMTP id <20171226193544.PNCY4075.eastrmfepo101.cox.net@eastrmimpo109.cox.net> for ; Tue, 26 Dec 2017 14:35:44 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.102] ([72.209.244.98]) by eastrmimpo109.cox.net with cox id qjbk1w0082869s801jbkS0; Tue, 26 Dec 2017 14:35:44 -0500 X-CT-Class: Clean X-CT-Score: 0.00 X-CT-RefID: str=0001.0A020201.5A42A490.00EF, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CT-Spam: 0 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=B/LJ6KlM c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=JFEMeGVUNR3hGa77igez4Q==:117 a=JFEMeGVUNR3hGa77igez4Q==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=PMayK-KgzlQA:10 a=bqptRvE002iwCe25EXYA:9 a=Jft8aZrUb4Ux_x3J:21 a=8ohlGB58m47ffuYb:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Authentication-Results: cox.net; none To: llg-members@lojban.org References: <7074953.2veMK8YGUJ@caracal> From: Bob LeChevalier Message-ID: <6c826210-9f71-1813-2957-7e5593ad18ed@lojban.org> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 14:35:44 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org On 12/25/2017 8:01 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > There is no mechanism to respect BPFK's decisions. What decisions? I've never seen a single announcement of a BPFK decision on any matter, except *possibly* there was adoption of "dot-side" - my memory is a bit hazy on that. I don't think that the byfy chair has reported any such changes in his reports to the meeting, either. Of course, from my standpoint, until they are written up as change pages to CLL or other baseline documents, any "decision" is meaningless. And if it isn't announced on Lojban List (or even Lojban-announcements-list) as well as on the web page, it is unlikely that anyone not involved in CLL discussions would become aware of it. Someone earlier wondered why CLL does not incorporate xorlo. That is probably because BPFK has not produced a set of change pages to CLL to communicate what xorlo is at that level of explanatory detail. If/when I again try to write in Lojban, I will be trying to do so in accordance with the Robin-written CLL standard, because that is the only standard I know of. (If there is some updated version on github or some other site, I don't know of it, and I'm not likely to even bother to try to figure out how to look to find out. There should be a link on the LLG web page, if Robin's publication is no longer current and official.) ------------ All this being said, I find the claim that "Lojban is dead" to be nonsense. So far as I've noticed, all postings to the byfy list in the last couple of years have been in Lojban. We were never able to sustain such long term continuous in-language discussion in the era before selpa'i. A dozen years ago there was a movement to try to hold LLG meetings primarily in Lojban, but it died before it was tried. So Lojban activity is greater and more sophisticated than it ever was, even if it doesn't rise to a sustained level that satisfies selpa'i. (I keep meaning to ask selpa'i how to get copies of his albums, since I don't know how to use technology more current than sticking a CD or DVD into a player, and I avoid on-line commerce due to fear of identity theft). In my own case, my Lojban along with my learning of other languages (mostly Russian), never went beyond the translate-to-English and try to understand, then translate my English response back to Lojban (and I don't have any idea HOW to go beyond that level). I haven't had the focus to be able to do this the last few years (and Nora gave up earlier), so I don't even try to get involved. I think to some extent, we are in a transition phase from the founding era dominated by "baby-boomers" now at or approaching retirement age, and a new generation, "millennials" or whatever, that (will) use entirely different forms of communication and community involvement. LLG can/will make that transition, but it won't be fast, or easy. I'm sorry that selpa'i feels that this means that Lojban has failed. ---- As for the goals of LLG, which selpa'i referred to in one post. When LLG was founded, Lojban had not yet really split off from TLI Loglan, and to the extent that it existed, it was more of a negotiating tactic for dealing with JCB (who claimed copyright of the words of TLI Loglan) than a real language. The bylaws were formulated to broadly cover a variety of forms of research into logical languages, and there has always been the possibility of conducting or supporting such research. But to put it simply, no one has been interested in such research EXCEPT in the form of promoting and studying the use of Lojban. Indeed, there is a strong antipathy to other "logical languages", which I admit to sharing; I'm simply not interested, and never have been - languages are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO too difficult to properly "invent" with the complete full documentation needed for new people to learn and use them. So I hope selpa'i will forgive me if I don't look at his own efforts at a new "logical language". So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but until then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote the purposes described in the Bylaws. --- lojbab _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members