Received: from localhost ([::1]:35824 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUwre-0006F7-NN; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:46:30 -0800 Received: from mail-yb0-f170.google.com ([209.85.213.170]:35258) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUwr7-0006Da-PO for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:45:59 -0800 Received: by mail-yb0-f170.google.com with SMTP id u107so4636029ybi.2 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:45:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=G37+tnJFwQ0ubGUD8OOMg+F+xQjtam64nWxCgJ2yjhc=; b=A572AhElywK9vfVxrbwV+wY0RN+2dKwDN7BhYGwbhZ5sNplA2KKAeKM8SB31YajetO yehgSBy0MlGOHY4IRieFEXZ6A9v5qw5oZug4CGlmmIgg7s7H1H18r1M/TSqA6bx5tXOo MwIH2XLbNt/4yjbJ8L6LxXPzdH4lkol3roJG0iydis3GTWCZ5BqMn5TfhU4tZdMAbsyd JSqtL7/3J4HQWO9vWbPV731haAhrqRsusnnigmbGLf2onLH8OWU48we0cjrjDNWmz9MP ZbECmJU8kaLMKr5PpJb21y53tUUZERHgMrjvvH88CYB3IIGVwY1jGXP6r1eFREtQTZfN w2mw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=G37+tnJFwQ0ubGUD8OOMg+F+xQjtam64nWxCgJ2yjhc=; b=BBAwV9I3JDkiQqUAcOnvSfoiDPUjIVrEe9JlQs64nb+6HTwAeFgA780nKRai3Cepa4 mKBd/ouJH3OqeWZXEZRGIWhHXKbJe/rQUL82hd2Q2LJ30dbFS1VLQKVeulZSaoo/T/21 TLG+C1zr+75pc4OFtyeVr5f2V2Mo29gQ89j6RBMLqVI8fcnV0YHEW8ak4FIpi+z7vCX9 nNvaGu0XBRIEaBn+ZmtWednxo6c/h/JQfsqRwNMWtJvkA0GvaMZBfTuhHsLkwoCJP3/x C9a3W4Fz8ErR3Q7WADG+w75Kadx4fW0K08O4NhnvVwDAWndrm/OwYMbBou7bNB0p+ax5 xNuw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKZgE6zDEzSSGvyzXSMLi0nARJK4wqGey2JyxtgD+M/S3i3yEfu lCt5/CV4x6Lbq/o9wcr0AjMwd0lsx95NwbcQjJw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovOyvPVyL0c06xV5PptdPNesKFRr2VsCScy1y+Y++D5H6qzBb4UNXpIN5t6Yb7rkHdQjZbSwEs3PHDJigJDRl0= X-Received: by 10.37.144.141 with SMTP id t13mr26145289ybl.249.1514562350891; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:45:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:45:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:45:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Curtis Franks Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 10:45:50 -0500 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Motion proposal - Unofficialness Disclaimer X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5044149823511281387==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============5044149823511281387== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e08329c1cea491305617c86c9" --089e08329c1cea491305617c86c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, I am not opposed to such a thing. Let me think - and I would be interested in having other input. On Dec 29, 2017 06:27, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: > > > 2017-12-29 13:15 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : > >> On Dec 29, 2017 04:41, "Gleki Arxokuna" >> wrote: >> >> >> >> 2017-12-29 10:56 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : >> >>> Definitely in English. >>> >> >> So, non-English pages will continue to be official? >> >> >> Sorry, at least in English (as an option, but possibly one which is >> always used - in addition to the same notice in possibly other languages= ). >> Language should not impact officialness, or the need to disclaim under t= his >> provision. Does that answer your question/address your concern (I may be >> misunderstanding). >> >> >> >> I would also suggest that the language of the notification match the >>> primary non-Lojbanic language of the article or content. The exact word= ing >>> would have to be worked out later (and we could delegate such >>> responsibility and details). It might be helpful for the notice to incl= ude >>> a link to a page describing what the disclaimer means and how it transl= ates >>> into other languages; it should also automatically generate a category = (and >>> page listing all members of the category) for so-disclaimed pages/conte= nts >>> and add the relevant page or content's section to that category. >>> >>> I would add it either to the top of a page or section, as appropriate. >>> >>> The exact format, design, and immediacy of presence of the notice >>> (including its size, boldness/typeface characteristics, and background >>> color) would have to be figured out and authority over such matters sho= uld >>> be delegated. >>> >> >> to whom? >> >> >> I am not sure. Probably just a temporary commission >> > > Maybe you can propose something specific? E.g. the front page of > mw.lojban.org has the following text: > > "This web site is dedicated to documenting Lojban and the activities of > the Lojban-using community, and also serves as the official web site of t= he > Logical Language Group (LLG), a non-profit organization founded in 1987 t= o > promote the scientific study of the relationships between language, thoug= ht > and human culture." > > There are also several links in the footer of every page, one of which > could lead to a localizable page with a disclaimer. > > I can do the technical stuff (add necessary templates so that the text > becomes localizable) but not the design and not the actual text of the > disclaimer. > > > >> which would establish the guidelines and approve of the wording in each >> language of concern and the first version of the notice which would be >> implemented. After that point, the power would disperse to the wiki's >> community (in the case of practical design and application) and to the L= LG >> (in the case of oversight and establishment of regulation). The LLG very >> well might not technically have any power to enforce its regulations >> (including this motion), but it would at least have an official position >> and would ostracize/encourage the rejection of the wiki if the wiki >> community did not comply. >> > >> >> >>> >>> (I am aware that such notices exist. The motion would make notice >>> obligatory - insofar as that is possible). >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> Can someone link all relevant portions of old discussions about this >>> matter after the motion gains a second or if it seems like providing th= at >>> information may be helpful for some ongoing, lively conversation? >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> I would like to remind everyone that proposal of a motion or its >>> seconding does not imply a vote in approval of or for that or any >>> resultant/finalized motion. >>> >>> On Dec 29, 2017 2:42 AM, "Gleki Arxokuna" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : >>>> >>>>> I move that: All non-official pages or content on *.lojban.org must >>>>> contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owned and >>>>> managed by voluntary >>>>> people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized >>>>> with the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone per= fectly >>>>> comply with, official specifications of the same. >>>>> >>>>> (This motion is intended to satisfy part of guskant's desires, relate= d >>>>> elsewhere. I copied a quasi-motion by them nearly verbatim.) >>>>> >>>> >>>> In which language? We already have a message for pages in Lojban: >>>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre >>>> in English: >>>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/en >>>> and probably in Japanese: >>>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/ja >>>> >>>> Should this message reflect the language currently selected by >>>> mediawiki's user? >>>> >>>> Where would you like to put such message? In the footer? >>>> >>>> ___ >>>>> >>>>> It is a little premature, but I raise the following concerns: >>>>> =E2=80=A2 How do we decide which content should be so disclaimed? Wha= t >>>>> constitutes "official" content for these purposes? How do we review c= ontent >>>>> and, later, disclaimers - particularly in a fashion which is quick en= ough >>>>> to handle edits made by users. >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Do we even have the authority to demand or enforce such dis= claimers? >>>>> The website is a wiki and, so, can be edited by anyone and can presum= ably >>>>> develop its own community standards. >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Is this disclaimer sufficient and sufficiently descriptive = for the >>>>> relevant purposes and desires? >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --089e08329c1cea491305617c86c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Okay, I am not opposed to such a thing. Let me think - an= d I would be interested in having other input.

On Dec 29, 2017 06:27, "Gleki Arxok= una" <gleki.is.my.nam= e@gmail.com> wrote:


2017-12-29 13:15 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <<= a href=3D"mailto:curtis.w.franks@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">curtis.w.fran= ks@gmail.com>:
=
On Dec 29, 2017 04:41, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.na= me@gmail.com> wrote:


2017-12-29 10:56 GMT+03:00 Curtis Fr= anks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>:
Definitely in English.=

So, non-English pages will continue = to be official?

Sorry, at least in English (as an option, but= possibly one which is always used - in addition to the same notice in poss= ibly other languages). Language should not impact officialness, or the need= to disclaim under this provision. Does that answer your question/address y= our concern (I may be misunderstanding).



=
= I would also suggest that the language of the notification match the primar= y non-Lojbanic language of the article or content. The exact wording would = have to be worked out later (and we could delegate such responsibility and = details). It might be helpful for the notice to include a link to a page de= scribing what the disclaimer means and how it translates into other languag= es; it should also automatically generate a category (and page listing all = members of the category) for so-disclaimed pages/contents and add the relev= ant page or content's section to that category.

I would add it= either to the top of a page or section, as appropriate.

The exact format, design, and immediacy of presence= of the notice (including its size, boldness/typeface characteristics, and = background color) would have to be figured out and authority over such matt= ers should be delegated.

=
to whom?
<= div dir=3D"auto">
I am not sure. Probably= just a temporary commission

Ma= ybe you can propose something specific? E.g. the front page of mw.lojban.org has the following = text:

"This web site is dedicated to document= ing Lojban and the activities of the Lojban-using community, and also serve= s as the official web site of the Logical Language Group (LLG), a non-profi= t organization founded in 1987 to promote the scientific study of the relat= ionships between language, thought and human culture."

<= /div>
There are also several links in the footer of every page, one of = which could lead to a localizable page with a disclaimer.

I can do the technical stuff (add necessary templates so that the t= ext becomes localizable) but not the design and not the actual text of the = disclaimer.

=C2=A0
which would establish the= guidelines and approve of the wording in each language of concern and the = first version of the notice which would be implemented. After that point, t= he power would disperse to the wiki's community (in the case of practic= al design and application) and to the LLG (in the case of oversight and est= ablishment of regulation). The LLG very well might not technically have any= power to enforce its regulations (including this motion), but it would at = least have an official position and would ostracize/encourage the rejection= of the wiki if the wiki community did not comply.
=

=C2=A0

(I am aware that such notices exis= t. The motion would make notice obligatory - insofar as that is possible).<= /div>

___

Can someone link all relevant portions of ol= d discussions about this matter after the motion gains a second or if it se= ems like providing that information may be helpful for some ongoing, lively= conversation?

___
=

I would like to remind everyo= ne that proposal of a motion or its seconding does not imply a vote in appr= oval of or for that or any resultant/finalized motion.

On Dec 29, 2017 2:42 AM, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@g= mail.com> wrote:


=
2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>:
I move that: All non-official pages or content on *.<= /span>lojban.org= =C2=A0must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owne= d and managed by voluntary
people,= and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized with the offic= ial design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly comply with, = official specifications of the same.

(This motion is i= ntended to satisfy part of guskant's desires, related elsewhere. I copi= ed a quasi-motion by them nearly verbatim.)
=

In which language? We already have a message for pages = in Lojban:=C2=A0
and probably in Japanese:
= https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/ja

<= /div>
Should this message reflect the language currently selected by me= diawiki's user?

Where would you like to put su= ch message? In the footer?

___

It is= a little premature, but I raise the following concerns:
=E2=80= =A2 How do we decide which content should be so disclaimed? What constitute= s "official" content for these purposes? How do we review content= and, later, disclaimers - particularly in a fashion which is quick enough = to handle edits made by users.
=E2=80=A2 Do we even have the aut= hority to demand or enforce such disclaimers? The website is a wiki and, so= , can be edited by anyone and can presumably develop its own community stan= dards.
=E2=80=A2 Is this disclaimer sufficient and sufficiently = descriptive for the relevant purposes and desires?

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members

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