Received: from localhost ([::1]:48942 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eV04k-0001nU-AL; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:12:14 -0800 Received: from mail-yw0-f174.google.com ([209.85.161.174]:44574) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eV04E-0001kv-Nr for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:11:43 -0800 Received: by mail-yw0-f174.google.com with SMTP id m129so9685198ywb.11 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:11:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=wYG4P4qzg/vIQRvkMmOOAJcstlDJWdYaMzEwTLYA06Y=; b=luwjtG4Hc4tWdOLvhvBrYdMKyNS5352nKkceFnD1/QczrvhhX8c9Rmzd0Pc/r3QPDU vzowCsPvcEnLcWW1XAzvG+2YdnvDD9weXI7uQTHWOGLl09q5ZwNn8BEY8MkXLZTn8Psp FL2s9+FkS0YSWABe30ISUAU1gUClE6g89b9PCZ1VEIsepdIJnL7YzVkJ73+suhT5LpDt BdF7B4+GLVa04OqAdRRSty+SKoEeaTLjEvRnYDrl7EBQ71ws0lRrR1b/kZ8DD23r6OnO vaHu3O2TANkNr/Hp1d6ZJxczUgRDqbveCY0VdQDTw6uSpoFsa07BZhekZpNyvn/A/cjG wlFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=wYG4P4qzg/vIQRvkMmOOAJcstlDJWdYaMzEwTLYA06Y=; b=VS22jdisOejiIm5AHJVTEketUAzTT12fmNnFIJvu2vP6ukdflYN9tMbqL9Rl4CXuGe BucUt6yO5N5d0VoDFrB3SWWSekFT/bCQtKnzY1MZCTwpjkpKiG4KXNJZrIWtG7KaFQHL GuKJ9X4KkqjwEY+TFt3/ZYsuWKP4l8oKGfkIceDYY2puELAuP0gKFibxrkG87nM+Xs7A ZFtOTD1CqIh9nuGvRI7ysKvpx7zPeId4WByFmMrDG4PkO7q9hHfmP1Jw+XQowg56fjsZ +iOWp7dwJNrTJK6F6WUpIRPzSi3lnhaJlGlv0adcWaIbKqpPA6SXMeLPvzYXXz91/jha IafQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLiVTPCOITOwKvU0KOZIm7l/we4rj6rUC9CIbotI3xhc/+dOxVv 6rx8p0cbQQngoFikAtFIKalG9Ved12wto+oewdA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBouuYiiHW73ydGIkIsAHD05vooB2MCDFd5O+Jl+EsBKArHRBhQRMXi0FdZCiDRvaMmOJBb0fmf7t0UrVCXom/hY= X-Received: by 10.129.39.194 with SMTP id n185mr24323312ywn.143.1514574695704; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:11:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:11:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Curtis Franks Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 14:11:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Motion proposal - Unofficialness Disclaimer X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2003152996270386214==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============2003152996270386214== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11414794b92c6105617f6647" --001a11414794b92c6105617f6647 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Note that such body actually may not have the authority or ability to enforce its regulations/policies. They would (in such cases) just be the LLG's official stance and recommendations for content. The LLG would have the ability to 'punish' non-compliance, probably by ostracization and similar, but little else. Nonetheless, having an official general policy (the content of my first motion and similar things) and then specific, detailed regulations for satisfaction of such policy (the output of the body described by my second motion) could be deemed beneficial. Basically, we would just be asserting Lojban-community standards. People or organizations can do as they please, but they may be contrary to the official position of the Lojban community (as expressed by the LLG) and would risk incurring the LLG's 'wrath'. If the LLG actually has direct and meaningful authority over any content or organization, then these policies and regulations would have greater effect and force. On Dec 29, 2017 13:47, "Curtis Franks" wrote: > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > I also move that: > > There shall be > =E2=80=8Bauthorized, =E2=80=8B > established > =E2=80=8B, constituted,=E2=80=8B > and organized a body > =E2=80=8B - under and by the authority of the LLG -=E2=80=8B > which will > =E2=80=8B oversee,=E2=80=8B > regulate > =E2=80=8B, and (insofar as possible) enforce=E2=80=8B > the official implementation and application of LLG policy consistent with > the content of the aforementioned motion proposal > =E2=80=8B, provided its passage,=E2=80=8B > or any similar policy of the LLG > =E2=80=8B and which shall search for potential violations of the same or > appropriate content which should be so disclaimed (regardless of any > implemented policy or other mandate, and not pertaining to only websites = or > content subject to the aforementioned policies of the LLG); when it finds > such content but does not have the authority to pursue such disclaimer wi= th > respect to said content, it shall notify the LLG of the situation=E2=80= =8B; > =E2=80=8Bt > his motion shall be inactive, vacuous, and > =E2=80=8B totally=E2=80=8B > ignored if the aforementioned motion proposal does not pass. > =E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B > All of its authority shall be bounded by such policy of the LLG and it > shall not notify or attempt to regulate any content which is not subject = to > or the subject of such LLG policy, although it may search for and review > such content.=E2=80=8B > It will regulate the officially > =E2=80=8B-=E2=80=8B > desired design, implementation, usage > =E2=80=8B, and enforcement =E2=80=8B > of any such notice, protocol, or disclaimer > =E2=80=8B in the stead of the LLG directly=E2=80=8B > . The body shall consist of an odd number of members, numbering at least > five. The body shall publish all of its > =E2=80=8Bdebate, =E2=80=8B > decision > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > s > =E2=80=8B, =E2=80=8B > and work to the LLG and will notify the pertinent websites and other > subjects as to its standards and policies once such are concretely > established > =E2=80=8B. The LLG=E2=80=8B > shall retain total right of oversight and control over the body and any o= f > its ouput > =E2=80=8B and any matter belonging to its domain of purpose=E2=80=8B or i= ts purview > ; the body shall govern and organize itself and design and enforce its ow= n > internal rules, its external standards, etc. > =E2=80=8Binsofar > as such does not conflict with the decisions of the LLG > =E2=80=8B, including the contents of this motion=E2=80=8B > . The body shall be composed on the earliest of > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > the first 1 January or first 1 June after its first membership is chosen, > after which point it shall exist for > =E2=80=8Bfully =E2=80=8B > four > =E2=80=8Bcalendrical =E2=80=8B > years and six > =E2=80=8Bcalendrical =E2=80=8B > months and then > =E2=80=8Bshall =E2=80=8B > be dissolved > =E2=80=8B, disconstituted,=E2=80=8B > and discontinued in its entirety, unless its lifetime is extended > =E2=80=8B and such expiration is delayed in part or whole by explicit=E2= =80=8B > official action of the LLG; upon it > =E2=80=8Bs > expiration > =E2=80=8B (described previously)=E2=80=8B > , all of its > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > policy, standards, work, decisions, and other output shall devolve to > =E2=80=8B and become the direct responsibility of=E2=80=8B > the LLG and shall persist and remain active and valid > =E2=80=8Bas > =E2=80=8B > policy, standards, work, decisions, and other output > =E2=80=8B (as appropriate) of and in the responsibility of the LLG=E2=80= =8B > until the LLG > =E2=80=8B explicitly > decides otherwise > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > =E2=80=8B or upon the establishment and constitution of another body or > organization under the authority of the LLG which has or shall have purvi= ew > which nonemptily intersects that of the body herein described (in which > case, all aforementioned pertinent > =E2=80=8B > policy, standards, work, decisions, and other output > =E2=80=8B =E2=80=8Bshall be inherited by and devolved to it unless otherw= ise specified by > the LLG) > ; the > =E2=80=8Bfirst =E2=80=8B > membership of the body > =E2=80=8Bherein constituted =E2=80=8B > shall be > =E2=80=8Bselected > in a manner which the LLG decides > =E2=80=8Bis > appropriate, to be determined later > =E2=80=8B; thereafter, all other selection and regulation of its membersh= ip shall > be under the primary authority and review of the body itself, although an= y > regular selection of new membership shall not occur prior to the elapse o= f > fully two calendrical years and six calendrical months after the original > establishment of the body=E2=80=8B and selection of its first membership > . > =E2=80=8B The name of the body herein constituted shall be determined by = the LLG > during or prior to, and as part of, the selection of its first membership= .=E2=80=8B > > On Dec 29, 2017 02:25, "Curtis Franks" wrote: > >> I move that: All non-official pages or content on *.lojban.org must >> contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owned and >> managed by voluntary >> people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized with >> the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly >> comply with, official specifications of the same. >> >> (This motion is intended to satisfy part of guskant's desires, related >> elsewhere. I copied a quasi-motion by them nearly verbatim.) >> ___ >> >> It is a little premature, but I raise the following concerns: >> =E2=80=A2 How do we decide which content should be so disclaimed? What >> constitutes "official" content for these purposes? How do we review cont= ent >> and, later, disclaimers - particularly in a fashion which is quick enoug= h >> to handle edits made by users. >> =E2=80=A2 Do we even have the authority to demand or enforce such discla= imers? >> The website is a wiki and, so, can be edited by anyone and can presumabl= y >> develop its own community standards. >> =E2=80=A2 Is this disclaimer sufficient and sufficiently descriptive for= the >> relevant purposes and desires? >> > --001a11414794b92c6105617f6647 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Note that such body actually may not have the authority o= r ability to enforce its regulations/policies. They would (in such cases) j= ust be the LLG's official stance and recommendations for content. The L= LG would have the ability to 'punish' non-compliance, probably by o= stracization and similar, but little else. Nonetheless, having an official = general policy (the content of my first motion and similar things) and then= specific, detailed regulations for satisfaction of such policy (the output= of the body described by my second motion) could be deemed beneficial.
Basically, we would just be asser= ting Lojban-community standards. People or organizations can do as they ple= ase, but they may be contrary to the official position of the Lojban commun= ity (as expressed by the LLG) and would risk incurring the LLG's 'w= rath'.

If the LLG ac= tually has direct and meaningful authority over any content or organization= , then these policies and regulations would have greater effect and force.<= /div>

On Dec= 29, 2017 13:47, "Curtis Franks" <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com> wrote:
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
I also move that:

Th= ere shall be
=E2=80=8Bauthorized, =E2=80=8B
e= stablished
=E2=80=8B, = constituted,=E2=80=8B
and organized a body
= =E2=80=8B - under and by the authority of the LLG -=E2=80=8B
which wi= ll
=E2=80=8B oversee,= =E2=80=8B
regulate
=E2=80=8B, and (insofar as possible) enforce=E2=80=8B
the official= implementation and application of LLG policy consistent with the content o= f the aforementioned motion proposal
=E2=80=8B, pro= vided its passage,=E2=80=8B
or any similar policy of the LLG
=E2=80=8B and which shall sear= ch for potential violations of the same or appropriate content which should= be so disclaimed (regardless of any implemented policy or other mandate, a= nd not pertaining to only websites or content subject to the aforementioned= policies of the LLG); when it finds such content but does not have the aut= hority to pursue such disclaimer with respect to said content, it shall not= ify the LLG of the situation=E2=80=8B;=C2=A0
=E2=80=8Bt
his motion shall be inactive, vacuous, and
=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B
All of its authority shall be bounded by such po= licy of the LLG and it shall not notify or attempt to regulate any content = which is not subject to or the subject of such LLG policy, although it may = search for and review such content.=E2=80=8B
It will regulate the officially
=E2=80=8B-=E2=80=8B
desired design, implementation, usage=
=E2=80=8B, and enforcement =E2=80=8B
<= span style=3D"font-family:"times new roman",serif">of any such no= tice, protocol, or disclaimer
=E2=80=8B in t= he stead of the LLG directly=E2=80=8B
. The body shall consist of an odd number of = members, numbering at least five. The body shall publish all of its =
=E2=80=8Bdebate, =E2=80=8B
decision
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8B=E2=80= =8B
s
=E2=80=8B, =E2=80=8B
and work to the LLG and will noti= fy the pertinent websites and other subjects as to its standards and polici= es once such are concretely established
=E2= =80=8B. The LLG=E2=80=8B
shall retain total right of oversight and control over th= e body and any of its ouput
=E2=80=8B and an= y matter belonging to its domain of purpose=E2=80=8B or its purview
; the body shal= l govern and organize itself and design and enforce its own internal rules,= its external standards, etc.
=E2=80=8Binso= far
=C2= =A0as such does not conflict with the decisions of the LLG
=E2=80=8B, including the contents of this motion=E2=80=8B. The body= shall be composed on the earliest of
=E2=80= =8B=E2=80=8B
the first 1 January or first 1 June after its first membership is cho= sen, after which point it shall exist for
= =E2=80=8Bfully =E2=80=8B
four
=E2=80=8Bcalendrical = =E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8Bcalendrical =E2=80= =8B
mont= hs and then
=E2=80=8Bshall =E2=80=8B
<= span style=3D"font-family:"times new roman",serif">be dissolved
=E2=80=8B, disconstituted,=E2=80=8B
and discontinued= in its entirety, unless its lifetime is extended
=E2=80=8B and such expiration is delayed in part or whole by explicit= =E2=80=8B
=E2= =80=8Bs=C2=A0
expiration
=E2=80=8B (described previo= usly)=E2=80=8B
, all of its
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
policy, standards, work, decisions, an= d other output shall devolve to
=E2=80=8B an= d become the direct responsibility of=E2=80=8B
the LLG and shall persist and remai= n active and valid
=E2=80=8Bas=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:"times new roman"= ;,serif;display:inline">=E2=80=8B
policy, standards, work, decisions, and other out= put
=E2=80=8B=C2=A0 (as appropriate) of and = in the responsibility of the LLG=E2=80=8B=C2=A0
until the LLG
=E2=80=8B explicitly=C2=A0
decides otherwise
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8B or upon the e= stablishment and constitution of another body or organization under the aut= hority of the LLG which has or shall have purview which nonemptily intersec= ts that of the body herein described (in which case, all aforementioned per= tinent=C2=A0
=E2=80=8B
policy, standards, work, decis= ions, and other output
=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8Bsh= all be inherited by and devolved to it unless otherwise specified by the LL= G)
; the=
=E2=80=8Bfirst =E2=80=8B
membership of the body <= /span>
=E2=80=8Bherein constituted =E2=80=8B
<= span style=3D"font-family:"times new roman",serif">shall be
=E2=80=8Bselected
=C2=A0in a manner which the LLG decide= s
=E2=80=8Bis
=C2=A0appropriate, to be determined l= ater
=E2=80=8B; thereafter, all other select= ion and regulation of its membership shall be under the primary authority a= nd review of the body itself, although any regular selection of new members= hip shall not occur prior to the elapse of fully two calendrical years and = six calendrical months after the original establishment of the body=E2=80= =8B and selection of its first membership
.
=E2=80= =8B The name of the body herein constituted shall be determined by the LLG = during or prior to, and as part of, the selection of its first membership.= =E2=80=8B

On Dec 29, 2017 02:25, "Curtis Franks" <curtis.w.franks@gmail.co= m> wrote:
I move that: All non-official pages or content on *.<= a href=3D"http://lojban.org/" style=3D"text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(= 66,133,244);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px" target=3D"_blank">lojb= an.org=C2=A0mus= t contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owned and man= aged by voluntary
people, and that= the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized with the official desig= n of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly comply with, official = specifications of the same.

(This motion is intended t= o satisfy part of guskant's desires, related elsewhere. I copied a quas= i-motion by them nearly verbatim.)
___

It is a little premature, but I raise the following concerns:
= =E2=80=A2 How do we decide which content should be so disclaimed? What cons= titutes "official" content for these purposes? How do we review c= ontent and, later, disclaimers - particularly in a fashion which is quick e= nough to handle edits made by users.
=E2=80=A2 Do we even have t= he authority to demand or enforce such disclaimers? The website is a wiki a= nd, so, can be edited by anyone and can presumably develop its own communit= y standards.
=E2=80=A2 Is this disclaimer sufficient and suffici= ently descriptive for the relevant purposes and desires?
--001a11414794b92c6105617f6647-- --===============2003152996270386214== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --===============2003152996270386214==--