Received: from [::1] (port=40828 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eVBoS-0005vW-PM; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 23:44:12 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f43.google.com ([74.125.82.43]:45407) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eVBnx-0005qz-2z for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 23:43:42 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 9so51072943wme.4 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 23:43:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=S61j0QNyhKSyG2/q66Mz1EPhLsFO14mJv+ra9FmBmXU=; b=O3j8VQwjAEGC5VlsxusO2AcymbERt4aqITy3eHPWHgQBRzhPZTWBboFHcpPfCbXHNs k2UPK2E9mnmgDEeocOwUUxFhg91buJuVJONpB0cTCbu1FPZpokf0StYONVsj4xzeUNeN OxqrjKU9Zb5yroKlcDDF5YX6vW0j2uPMFHQy6Hozs+kqQy6gvrQAguCm8dVbJ9Pqqx3j mXtm/UkMJ9i+nnQW3s+AD8Qjk0Ug/q3ozWleSqju8G9ZlKvOV5qkVJFqqvlz/zp3g0bR X0xTOOVuSEXU7bTAj5k78VkDS2ok9gtm3J8dgtPd3TgUUxJ7/QPjN/m07+bLOc7uzlDe PDyg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=S61j0QNyhKSyG2/q66Mz1EPhLsFO14mJv+ra9FmBmXU=; b=LMhncyc8epdtHTDHsIIHnlqqz6w5nLILhtEQcqaRRnCjrchG1A802W6xRhBwlUlIDD VtJmOuY+ZpAH7xSNf2kzeGEpf4917I2+2z4W3SLMqhUCmCTc9QEXhe6xDCDtALsE6nwz 47DsMDUYNCU2PgU7ZePyiMgFUq4o6Z0epp5cd0kCDL4JOILpTqLO5uikxND9XFLMqE7q S6wp9Y/iiAlQQW1SZ0NxCOBT9J03Ize+jVfhgBxwPCHQ8sH6epqA65fjykX9oRIgXcbO 2FyIht2SEzQZIl0FKFpi2ufPXrVEtkuA9eu/6Z4TcmN8dlsPtAzmsCLf7E+DTEEE5MC/ wjZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mIVN+b0VfZ8Uc47uUXWfGTfPVL1bChG+h9/dukAaOYiUh9lEKhn ZLsHtmudRlHj22xpStX7acQrH0CCxJSiUL53m7N2 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotopuf9aightgxLs4IArAmNtP+lId/YP1eiVanbr3CjUcJCqy2vE4i92/S5rVZU4f8qx4fzoM8p68rTBY8GUsc= X-Received: by 10.80.139.180 with SMTP id m49mr50071868edm.36.1514619813063; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 23:43:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.173.219 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 23:42:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7074953.2veMK8YGUJ@caracal> <6c826210-9f71-1813-2957-7e5593ad18ed@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 10:42:52 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5149650791253114636==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============5149650791253114636== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c19578eed6f6e056189e7a8" --94eb2c19578eed6f6e056189e7a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 2017-12-30 6:45 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : > Okay, maybe we should take on both projects (exploration and promotion of > logical language in general > That'd be nice if there were anything to promote. Being just "wilfully interested" but not showing this will, not taking actions is effectively equal to "no one is interested in promotion". > and also, separately, the exploration and promotion of Lojban (regardless > of its status as a logical language)). We might also want to create or > establish a framework for the creation of a Lojban derivative which is a > logical language by all previously mentioned standards. > > How do we do this? What proposals or orientations are actionable? > I think 1. There must be rules on what is worth promoting, 2. what to do when campaign fails or the project becomes dormant (like it happened to Xorban outside LLG) 3. whether there should be people that are able to use such language or even speak it (in case of speakable logical languages). If not enough people then policy for inviting knowleagable people to LLG. > On Dec 29, 2017 10:30, "And Rosta" wrote: > >> >> >> On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeChevalier" wrote: >> > The bylaws were formulated to broadly cover a variety of forms of >> research into logical languages, and there has always been the possibility >> of conducting or supporting such research. But to put it simply, no one has >> been interested in such research EXCEPT in the form of promoting and >> studying the use of Lojban. >> >> That statement is patently false and wilfully amnesiac. >> >> I was for many years the most vocal proponent of the LLG's mission to >> explore logical language, as opposed to the mission to promote Lojban. As a >> member of LLG and the Lojban community I eventually changed my position, >> but this was because it became increasingly evident to me that the two >> goals (of exploring and promoting logical language, versus promoting >> Lojban) are in fact antithetical; within LLG and the Lojban community, a >> victory for the one goal can be achieved only through the defeat of the >> other; but success in the goal of promoting Lojban can be achieved only >> within LLG and the Lojban community, whereas success in the goal of >> promoting logical language can be achieved outside it; many promoters of >> Lojban (as opposed to logical language) have invested much of their life's >> work in the enterprise, and pursuing the failure of another's life's work >> should be avoided where possible; therefore LLG and the Lojban community >> should be left to promote (conservative) Lojban unopposed (and therefore >> must not be required to promote logical language). >> >> > Indeed, there is a strong antipathy to other "logical languages", >> which I admit to sharing; I'm simply not interested, and never have been - >> languages are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO too difficult to properly >> "invent" with the complete full documentation needed for new people to >> learn and use them. So I hope selpa'i will forgive me if I don't look at >> his own efforts at a new "logical language". >> >> This is all true, except that the Lojban that Lojbab endorses is not a >> logical language, for all that it might falsely advertise itself as such. >> >> The antipathy Lojbab describes exists because Lojban seeks to accrue >> users and promotes itself by falsely claiming to be a logical language. Any >> logical language is therefore a rival to Lojban. And Lojban's false claim >> to be a logical language, coupled with its comparative fame, is an obstacle >> to -- a distraction from -- the promotion of logical language. >> >> >> >> >> So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but >> until then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote >> the purposes described in the Bylaws. >> >> >> Again, patent bullshit. >> >> >> While I would be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes >> described in the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its >> baselined and current forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban >> community rather than from the logical language community, it is obviously >> and not unreasonably the case that the large majority of LLG members >> prioritize the promotion of Lojban over the promotion of the purposes >> described in the Bylaws. >> >> --And. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --94eb2c19578eed6f6e056189e7a8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2017-12-30 6:45 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gma= il.com>:
Okay, maybe we should take on both projects (exploration= and promotion of logical language in general

That'd be nice if there were anything to promote. Being just &= quot;wilfully interested" but not showing this will, not taking action= s is effectively equal to "no one is interested in promotion".

=C2=A0
and also, separately, the exploration and pro= motion of Lojban (regardless of its status as a logical language)). We migh= t also want to create or establish a framework for the creation of a Lojban= derivative which is a logical language by all previously mentioned standar= ds.

How do we do this? What pr= oposals or orientations are actionable?

I think
1. There must be rules on what is worth promotin= g,=C2=A0
2. what to do when campaign fails or the project becomes= dormant (like it happened to Xorban outside LLG)
3. whether ther= e should be people that are able to use such language or even speak it (in = case of speakable logical languages). If not enough people then policy for = inviting knowleagable people to LLG.


<= br>
On Dec 29, 2017 = 10:30, "And Rosta" <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
<= /div>


On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeChevalie= r" <lojbab@l= ojban.org> wrote:
> = The bylaws were formulated to broadly cover a variety of forms of research = into logical languages, and there has always been the possibility of conduc= ting or supporting such research. But to put it simply, no one has been int= erested in such research EXCEPT in the form of promoting and studying the u= se of Lojban.

That statement is patently false and wilf= ully amnesiac.

I was for many years the most vocal prop= onent of the LLG's mission to explore logical language, as opposed to t= he mission to promote Lojban. As a member of LLG and the Lojban community I= eventually changed my position, but this was because it became increasingl= y evident to me that the two goals (of exploring and promoting logical lang= uage, versus promoting Lojban) are in fact antithetical; within LLG and the= Lojban community, a victory for the one goal can be achieved only through = the defeat of the other; but success in the goal of promoting Lojban can be= achieved only within LLG and the Lojban community, whereas success in the = goal of promoting logical language can be achieved outside it; many promote= rs of Lojban (as opposed to logical language) have invested much of their l= ife's work in the enterprise, and pursuing the failure of another's= life's work should be avoided where possible; therefore LLG and the Lo= jban community should be left to promote (conservative) Lojban unopposed (a= nd therefore must not be required to promote logical language).

>=C2=A0 Indeed, there is a strong antipathy to other "log= ical languages", which I admit to sharing; I'm simply not interest= ed, and never have been - languages are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO = too difficult to properly "invent" with the complete full documen= tation needed for new people to learn and use them.=C2=A0 So I hope selpa&#= 39;i will forgive me if I don't look at his own efforts at a new "= logical language".

This is all true, except that t= he Lojban that Lojbab endorses is not a logical language, for all that it m= ight falsely advertise itself as such.=C2=A0

The antipa= thy Lojbab describes exists because Lojban seeks to accrue users and promot= es itself by falsely claiming to be a logical language. Any logical languag= e is therefore a rival to Lojban. And Lojban's false claim to be a logi= cal language, coupled with its comparative fame, is an obstacle to -- a dis= traction from -- the promotion of logical language.



So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but unti= l then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote the pu= rposes described in the Bylaws.

Again, patent bullshit.=C2=A0


While I w= ould be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes described in= the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its baselined and curr= ent forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban community rather than fr= om the logical language community, it is obviously and not unreasonably the= case that the large majority of LLG members prioritize the promotion of Lo= jban over the promotion of the purposes described in the Bylaws.=C2=A0

--And.

_______________________________= ________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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