Received: from localhost ([::1]:58008 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ecmGg-000311-Ha; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 22:04:42 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f46.google.com ([74.125.82.46]:39292) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ecmG9-0002zN-Ul for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 22:04:11 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f46.google.com with SMTP id b21so7302706wme.4 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 22:04:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=qAJROA2N3X1pl88y+91uSvI/9sH9VKzU2EglBUZDEko=; b=cQmFj1kGtk2oChxPR7bULuecl2bXRgKEgL/WP4DrHnXwWYUNUHkrubXXzws57Sir37 Cj41NTxrz6rUaGou8pMjCF47Qjxvv1ccp1wn2WFJLAFNDPqNEBdttxmnpxjyBGggIDJ2 xT2vFZc2A9oW+9zFnO4x6GU52VGtlTxoh7Gs88YLTwcmt0gT2H1zI1ouxNwzjMUFo+9X KsXBpeeXi4bjllrXuMNMhy8FAdHc/tbW51Mc/aZtpTakrC3mKX4bZOZkOxrzLmvoZpbJ 57g7YNk7DjVtyfMTvp2Goyypu7H4cuGpwIazYjrjfHOwJzGfOf7m0JE6jGykKN9ucrjZ jVTg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=qAJROA2N3X1pl88y+91uSvI/9sH9VKzU2EglBUZDEko=; b=gpuD82DevADtwRo1mAm3Ql6ipKEZZRARL7v0ZDNUE8J3HbCEt/KeZ/F9FZxtO1vjT7 cJqXH0P46Ldyn8RHSjKGMrWnFyy0UURmEiw2Tcx7qUpQxSgGJt6EuoiI8RDMMzOnFjms bfSw8HxgQrBm81XN4lwtS3pVTfRmJeXYuZqoB8E08Xeoac9N79mYn9Vn92hjl/cy1yn/ JFQE2P8dmhhtb/xcVDIczMjqHvp7jif9qNhvFlul9XBxU+QHWtyvDy+kBx+CRnckqpdh JnNZAcqQjhSDH1VwjzikwK0afIoHlFRCjlJKh5ym3H0IFowDS0L2mCwKfLFU2TyZf2R8 vOpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytfLnNf/tqlcQeik8PoUKuKI49Qp1gcDnPlDMYESbGa9FySN9uWy r1bQL4J0qzEWHRtCaLi5IJUeDe8RobP6Tw+8WA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x227CzNF4PWCC4k1b7IApYxceNfMl33TDbsN7rFgaJ9+jiddmqtJOzB0agj1ybkeyZlBoPT7WsJNLMCsPDMfK8VA= X-Received: by 10.80.138.208 with SMTP id k16mr1932466edk.181.1516428242455; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 22:04:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.139.236 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 22:03:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4734149.Ac4Tda036i@caracal> <415C970B-FE34-45F4-85EA-58923A0489E0@gmail.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 09:03:22 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.0 X-Spam_score_int: -9 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Motion proposal - Unofficialness Disclaimer X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5165761992607588030==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============5165761992607588030== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c197aaab810a405632ef6f0" --94eb2c197aaab810a405632ef6f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I've been a proponent of "unofficialness" disclaimer since the beginning of the current mediawiki. My original idea was to mark unofficial pages with "jbocre: " prefix whereas official LLG pages would lack it. Later pinned messages with disclaimers became popular. I was against mentioning LLG as an official organization at mw.lojban.org or mentioning mw.lojban.org as curated by LLG since 1. LLG had been doing effectively nothing for years 2. Language can't be owned Judging by the current front page it seems I lost that battle. I can see no problems if the whole mw.lojban.org is abandoned as an official place. Lojban seems greater to me than some (still) defunct organization. How many people have heard of Lojban and how many heard of LLG? 2018-01-20 8:56 GMT+03:00 Creative Care Services : > As Riley has said, there is much room to discuss how > > On Jan 19, 2018 19:24, "Riley Martinez-Lynch" wrote= : > >> I vote no on this motion, which I understand to be numbered as 5. >> >> I=E2=80=99d like to add that I would like to work on distinguishing the = official >> publications of LLG from content which is not official, and that I think >> that adding a disclaimer to web pages is not an adequate solution. As >> guskant has pointed out, there are other channels that someone who is no= t >> overly familiar with lojban or LLG might confuse with official organs of >> LLG. >> >> I get the firm impression that there is a consensus to address this >> issue, which is to say, while opinions vary about how grave the problem = is, >> I have yet to hear an argument that we should leave things exactly as th= ey >> are. I think that we can do better than formal resolutions that originat= e >> in the course of a confusing email discussion, and if I am wrong and we >> can=E2=80=99t, it=E2=80=99s possible to legislate later, once we underst= and why it=E2=80=99s >> necessary to do it that way. >> >> =E2=80=94Riley >> >> On Jan 17, 2018, at 4:52 PM, Adam Lopresto >> wrote: >> >> I vote Nay. >> >> On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 4:11 PM Creative Care Services < >> comcaresvcs@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I now open this topic to a vote on the following proposal: >>> >>> All non-official pages or content on *.lojban.org must contain a >>> disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owned and managed by >>> voluntary >>> >>> people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized wit= h >>> the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly >>> comply with, official specifications of the same. >>> >>> Voting will be closed no sooner than noon on January 16, 2018 GMT. >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 1:20 AM, Curtis Franks >> > wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 5, 2018 03:20, "Creative Care Services" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thank you, Pierre. >>>>> >>>>> We now have a motion on the floor that has been made and seconded. I >>>>> ask that all discussion of this motion, and only such discussion take= place >>>>> in this thread. As a point, since we have people in attendance who ar= e not >>>>> officially members I am making it clear that anyone can make comments= , post >>>>> ideas, respond to ideas and proposals, and ask questions. We apprecia= te >>>>> your interest. >>>>> >>>>> Discussion will be open until 12:00 noon GMT on January 9, 2018, or >>>>> until it appears to me that the discussion is no longer active before= then. >>>>> Other discussions will continue in other threads. Because my intent i= s to >>>>> complete this meeting fairly soon without having to push topics to th= e next >>>>> meeting just because of time I would like to carry out similar proces= ses in >>>>> parallel I ask for a ruling on the appropriatness of such action. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> .karis. >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 5, 2018 02:11, "Pierre Abbat" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, January 5, 2018 1:46:41 AM EST Creative Care Services wrot= e: >>>>> > Ok, with multiple seconds it is necessary to clarify which motion w= e >>>>> will >>>>> > be voting on and whether at least one second is specifically for th= at >>>>> > motion. >>>>> > >>>>> > I therefore am restating what the first motion was : >>>>> > >>>>> > Curtis moved that, " I move that: All non-official pages or content >>>>> on *. >>>>> > lojban.org must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the >>>>> website is >>>>> > owned and managed by voluntary people, and that the marked contents >>>>> are not >>>>> > necessarily harmonized with the official design of Lojban and may n= ot >>>>> > reflect, let alone perfectly comply with, official specifications o= f >>>>> the >>>>> > same." >>>>> > >>>>> > Is there a second for this only? >>>>> >>>>> I second this. >>>>> >>>>> Pierre >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --94eb2c197aaab810a405632ef6f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, I've been a proponent of=C2=A0"unofficialne= ss" disclaimer since the beginning of the current mediawiki.

<= /div>
My original idea was to mark unofficial pages with "jbocre: = " prefix whereas official LLG pages would lack it.
Later pin= ned messages with disclaimers became popular.

I wa= s against mentioning LLG as an official organization at mw.lojban.org or mentioning mw.lojban.org as curated by LLG= since
1. LLG had been doing effectively nothing for years
<= div>2. Language can't be owned
Judging by the current front p= age it seems I lost that battle.

I can see no prob= lems if the whole mw.loj= ban.org is abandoned as an official place.
Lojban seems great= er to me than some (still) defunct organization. How many people have heard= of Lojban and how many heard of LLG?



2018-01-20 8:56 GMT= +03:00 Creative Care Services <comcaresvcs@gmail.com>:
As Riley has said, there= is much room to discuss how=C2=A0

On Jan 19, 2018 19:24, "Riley Martinez= -Lynch" <s= hunpiker@gmail.com> wrote:
I vote no on this mo= tion, which I understand to be numbered as 5.

I=E2= =80=99d like to add that I would like to work on distinguishing the officia= l publications of LLG from content which is not official, and that I think = that adding a disclaimer to web pages is not an adequate solution. As guska= nt has pointed out, there are other channels that someone who is not overly= familiar with lojban or LLG might confuse with official organs of LLG.

I get the firm impression that there is a consensus t= o address this issue, which is to say, while opinions vary about how grave = the problem is, I have yet to hear an argument that we should leave things = exactly as they are. I think that we can do better than formal resolutions = that originate in the course of a confusing email discussion, and if I am w= rong and we can=E2=80=99t, it=E2=80=99s possible to legislate later, once w= e understand why it=E2=80=99s necessary to do it that way.

=E2=80=94Riley

=
On Jan 17, 2018, at 4:52 PM, Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com> wrote:<= /div>
I vote Nay.
On Sat, Jan 13, 2018 at 4:11 = PM Creative Care Services <comcaresvcs@gmail.com> wrote:
I now open this topic to a vote on the fol= lowing proposal:

All non-official pages or content on *.lojban.org=C2=A0must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, t= hat the website is owned and managed by voluntary
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

people, and th= at the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized with the official des= ign of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly comply with, officia= l specifications of the same.
=

Voting will be closed no sooner than noon on January 16, 2018 GM= T.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 1:20 AM, Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks= @gmail.com> wrote:
<= /div>

On Jan 5, 20= 18 03:20, "Creative Care Services" <comcaresvcs@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank y= ou, Pierre.

We now have a moti= on on the floor that has been made and seconded. I ask that all discussion = of this motion, and only such discussion take place in this thread. As a po= int, since we have people in attendance who are not officially members I am= making it clear that anyone can make comments, post ideas, respond to idea= s and proposals, and ask questions. We appreciate your interest.=C2=A0

Discussion will be open unti= l 12:00 noon GMT on January 9, 2018, or until it appears to me that the dis= cussion is no longer active before then. Other discussions will continue in= other threads. Because my intent is to complete this meeting fairly soon w= ithout having to push topics to the next meeting just because of time I wou= ld like to carry out similar processes in parallel I ask for a ruling on th= e appropriatness of such action.=C2=A0

Thank you.=C2=A0

.karis.=C2= =A0

On Jan 5, 2018 02:11, "Pierre Abbat" <phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:
On Friday, January 5, 2018 1:46:41 AM EST Creative= Care Services wrote:
> Ok, with multiple seconds it is necessary to clarify which motion we w= ill
> be voting on and whether at least one second is specifically for that<= br> > motion.
>
> I therefore am restating what the first motion was :
>
> Curtis moved that, " I move that: All non-official pages or conte= nt on *.
> lojban.org must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the we= bsite is
> owned and managed by voluntary people, and that the marked conten= ts are not
> necessarily harmonized with the official design of Lojban and may not<= br> > reflect, let alone perfectly comply with, official specifications of t= he
> same."
>
> Is there a second for this only?

I second this.

Pierre

--
loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members
_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing= list
Llg-me= mbers@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo= /llg-members


________________= _______________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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