Received: from localhost ([::1]:52338 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eupjN-0006aj-CO; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 17:24:57 -0800 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:55282) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eupip-0006Zh-JM for llg-members@lojban.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 17:24:26 -0800 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6D26210BF for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2018 02:24:13 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1520731453; bh=WP3lKpBSvZQg8z4y0O2QcpRTW/WDqi7brhh01/ggghM=; h=Subject:To:From:Date:From; b=rZrSLyXfcSo7t3nlN8Wd5N0uiSJTuQehEQ1JyKfYJ3JDFwmqjo3948C4J0v0AU6Ym yn01HKnBFOeQ3xw7en7SR+6av/EcQ7pHXDdN7f1uLJPsRUJGaMEEUHia2iVJee/ARU nLDgAWn1+gyayHiWkX5b+DcxMQUq+aiieyAxX17qggwk5uZ/yewr7loKaOvCxru0H7 HemHgGBkIds70XINTryKqE5vo28kPcB+sWpMwAqQB1bcGpHz+hvGqDyTW4o+63t0nK v3VzKJs1/npIAAjsoVEGH/3JwQCZDR7Qaz8wmHJv2M56dvHwPGYAZl0SKQKn8PttxH Y5PEvdK/c3Ybg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 3zzNgc5dJbz9rxG for ; Sun, 11 Mar 2018 02:24:12 +0100 (CET) To: llg-members@lojban.org References: <58E7EB12-0A74-4057-95BA-1CA5FB6ED8DF@gmail.com> From: Gregorio Guidi Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 02:24:11 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <58E7EB12-0A74-4057-95BA-1CA5FB6ED8DF@gmail.com> Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_bar: ---- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Meeting over? X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2551953627267893968==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2551953627267893968== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------32A765194105A850E1FAA0B5" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------32A765194105A850E1FAA0B5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies for the intrusion in the conversation, I am not an LLG member and I followed the meeting as an observer. Back in December, solpahi had the following to say: /Lojban is dead. The BPFK is dead, the LLG is dead. These meetings are nothing more than something the LLG must do once a year, but everyone dreads the meetings and they never achieve anything useful. That's why I was going to propose that LLG dissolve itself according to Article 11 of the Bylaws (//https://mw.lojban.org/papri/LLG_Bylaws_(2007)/ /). If you think LLG should not dissolve itself, then you should be able to say why. Find good reasons why we need the LLG, because if you don't find any good reasons, it will continue to be pointless./ At the time I thought this was quite exaggerated. But having followed the meeting until now and having seen the depressing ending it reached (if it is an ending), then I can only come to the conclusion that solpahi was 100% right - and it pains me to admit it. It really doesn't speak well for the organization that the voting process cannot be brought to an end because tallying the votes is too difficult (if it can help, my unofficial count is reported below). And what about the plans to discuss "New business"? Perhaps, then, it would make sense to go back to the suggestion of solpahi and put on the table of the meeting the dissolution of the LLG, as a final point? Or at least dismantle the BPFK as a committee, and leave Lojban in the hands of the volunteers that are willing to take care of it. I think it would make sense as a last attempt to try to reverse - citing again solpahi - "the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan". Gregorio _LLG Goals: logical languages_ "/The LLG shall adopt, as a principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals), the intention of exploration and promotion of logical language(s) in general, subject to the following definitional framework and description: Presupposing that everything effable (i.e. linguistically expressible) can be represented as a predicate-argument structure (PAS), a logical language (in the technical sense, i.e. loglang) is one that (syntactically-)unambiguously bidirectionally encodes an unlimited number of PASs. (Also known by some as the 'monoparsing' property. The relevant bidirectionality is conversion both from PAS to phonological form and from phonological form to PAS.)/" Curtis Franks: Aye Thomas Porter: Aye Gleki: Nay _LLG Goals: Lojban_ "/A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals) is promotion of Lojban (regardless of its status as a logical language) as defined by documents endorsed by the LLG./" Curtis Franks: Aye Thomas Porter: Nay Gleki: Aye _LLG Goals: Lojban derivative_ "/A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals) is creation of a Lojban derivative that is a logical language./" Thomas Porter: Aye Gleki: Nay _Unofficial Social Media Presences_ "/It is moved that the LLG adopt an official policy that the LLG or some body constituted by it for such purpose search for and monitor social media or blog platforms, accounts, pages, profiles, groups, communities, bots, etc. (hereafter called "entities") which in any way whatsoever relate to, promote, or use Lojban or other LLG-adopted logical languages and which are not clearly human, personal, non-promoting, or unofficial - and that such a body requests such entities to prominently display a disclaimer stating that they are unofficial and not endorsed by the LLG./" Adam Lopresto: Nay Curtis Franks: Nay Pierre Abbat: Nay selpa'i: Nay guskant: Nay Alex Burka: Nay Gleki: Nay Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay __Unofficial Disclaimer_ _"/All non-official pages or content on *.//lojban.org //must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owned and managed by voluntary people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized with the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly comply with, official specifications of the same./" Adam Lopresto: Nay guskant: Aye Gleki: Aye Curtis Franks: Aye Alex Burka: Aye Pierre Abbat: Aye karis: Aye Thomas Porter: Aye Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay _ Constitution of a an Enforcing Body _See http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/private/llg-members/2018-January/001810.html_ _http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/private/llg-members/2018-January/001817.html_ _ Adam Lopresto: Nay Curtis Franks: Aye Thomas Porter: Aye Alex Burka: Nay Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay _Election of BPFK Chair_ selpa'i for BPFK Chair. Adam Lopresto: Aye Ilmen: Aye Alex Burka: Aye Riley Martinez-Lynch: Aye xorxes: Aye Curtis Franks: Aye guskant: Aye Gleki: Aye Pierre Abbat: Aye karis: Aye On 03/05/2018 03:39 PM, Riley Martinez-Lynch wrote: > I am not traveling, but like Karen, I am distracted by other commitments. > > This is not the kind of attention that I'd like to give to the meeting. I continue to be convinced that it is not practical to conduct these meetings by email: In part because it is difficult to follow the course of the meeting, and in part because it causes the meeting to sprawl over long periods of time. It's hard for people to sustain attention and plan around an unbounded commitment like that. Personally, I'm finding it near impossible. > > Given that it is March 2018 and this is still the 2017 meeting, I would urge that we admit defeat and terminate the meeting, with any items that were raised but which did not receive final vote tallies deferred to the 2018 meeting. As long as we have a Board and have re-authorized BPFK to continue its work, I think our job is done. > > I would also urge that we schedule the 2018 meeting to take place at a time that is fixed and bounded. I don't see that we have more than a few hours of business to discuss. This may be obscured by the fact that complex measures with little prior discussion and apparently little support have been introduced for debate. When the meeting drags out for months and people lose the thread or become distracted with other matters, we risk enacting decisions that don't accurately reflect the will of the body or of the community that we serve. This defeats the purpose of the meeting. > > I would urge my fellow members to introduce and debate complex and controversial matters outside of the meeting, so that we can keep the meetings to a reasonable length. Debates don't gain anything from the meeting format, where they have to compete for attention with other meeting business, and where visibility and participation is limited to LLG members. > > --Riley > > >> On Feb 26, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Bob LeChevalier wrote: >> >> On 2/25/2018 7:30 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>> Why is everyone silent? What should the next actions be? >> >> I believe that the meeting is not over. >> >> My understanding is that Karen is dealing with a severe family health situation involving her elderly mother. >> >> I could in theory take over running the meeting as VP, but I admit that I haven't been following the meeting that closely due to health and family distractions, and I am not sure what the status is regarding the rats nest of motions that were all on the floor at once. >> >> And I am not sure that mukti as secretary is following closely either, due to his frequent traveling. Otherwise, he could inform us as to his understanding of the status of all motions, and I could take over the meeting on that basis. >> >> Thus I suggest we just hang on for a little while longer and hope that Karen checks in soon, and she can then decide to finish the meeting or turn over the chair to me with the status made clear. >> >> lojbab >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --------------32A765194105A850E1FAA0B5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Apologies for the intrusion in the conversation, I am not an LLG member and I followed the meeting as an observer.

Back in December, solpahi had the following to say:

Lojban is dead.

The BPFK is dead, the LLG is dead. These meetings are nothing more than 
something the LLG must do once a year, but everyone dreads the meetings 
and they never achieve anything useful.

That's why I was going to propose that LLG dissolve itself according to 
Article 11 of the Bylaws (https://mw.lojban.org/papri/LLG_Bylaws_(2007)).
If you think LLG should not dissolve itself, then you should be able to say why.
Find good reasons why we need the LLG, because if you don't find any good reasons, 
it will continue to be pointless.

At the time I thought this was quite exaggerated. But having followed the meeting until now and having seen the depressing ending it reached (if it is an ending), then I can only come to the conclusion that solpahi was 100% right - and it pains me to admit it. It really doesn't speak well for the organization that the voting process cannot be brought to an end because tallying the votes is too difficult (if it can help, my unofficial count is reported below). And what about the plans to discuss "New business"?

Perhaps, then, it would make sense to go back to the suggestion of solpahi and put on the table of the meeting the dissolution of the LLG, as a final point?
Or at least dismantle the BPFK as a committee, and leave Lojban in the hands of the volunteers that are willing to take care of it. I think it would make sense as a last attempt to try to reverse - citing again solpahi - "the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan".

Gregorio


LLG Goals: logical languages
"The LLG shall adopt, as a principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals), the intention of exploration and promotion of logical language(s) in general, subject to the following definitional framework and description: Presupposing that everything effable (i.e. linguistically expressible) can be represented as a predicate-argument structure (PAS), a logical language (in the technical sense, i.e. loglang) is one that (syntactically-)unambiguously bidirectionally encodes an unlimited number of PASs. (Also known by some as the 'monoparsing' property. The relevant bidirectionality is conversion both from PAS to phonological form and from phonological form to PAS.)"

Curtis Franks: Aye
Thomas Porter: Aye
Gleki: Nay

LLG Goals: Lojban
"A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals) is promotion of Lojban (regardless of its status as a logical language) as defined by documents endorsed by the LLG."

Curtis Franks: Aye
Thomas Porter: Nay
Gleki: Aye

LLG Goals: Lojban derivative
"A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals) is creation of a Lojban derivative that is a logical language."

Thomas Porter: Aye
Gleki: Nay

Unofficial Social Media Presences
"It is moved that the LLG adopt an official policy that the LLG or some body constituted by it for such purpose search for and monitor social media or blog platforms, accounts, pages, profiles, groups, communities, bots, etc. (hereafter called "entities") which in any way whatsoever relate to, promote, or use Lojban or other LLG-adopted logical languages and which are not clearly human, personal, non-promoting, or unofficial - and that such a body requests such entities to prominently display a disclaimer stating that they are unofficial and not endorsed by the LLG."

Adam Lopresto: Nay
Curtis Franks: Nay
Pierre Abbat: Nay
selpa'i: Nay
guskant: Nay
Alex Burka: Nay
Gleki: Nay
Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay

Unofficial Disclaimer
"All non-official pages or content on *.lojban.org must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owned and managed by voluntary people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized with the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly comply with, official specifications of the same."

Adam Lopresto: Nay
guskant: Aye
Gleki: Aye
Curtis Franks: Aye
Alex Burka: Aye
Pierre Abbat: Aye
karis: Aye
Thomas Porter: Aye
Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay

Constitution of a an Enforcing Body
See http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/private/llg-members/2018-January/001810.html
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/private/llg-members/2018-January/001817.html

Adam Lopresto: Nay
Curtis Franks: Aye
Thomas Porter: Aye
Alex Burka: Nay
Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay

Election of BPFK Chair
selpa'i for BPFK Chair.

Adam Lopresto: Aye
Ilmen: Aye
Alex Burka: Aye
Riley Martinez-Lynch: Aye
xorxes: Aye
Curtis Franks: Aye
guskant: Aye
Gleki: Aye
Pierre Abbat: Aye
karis: Aye


On 03/05/2018 03:39 PM, Riley Martinez-Lynch wrote:
I am not traveling, but like Karen, I am distracted by other commitments.

This is not the kind of attention that I'd like to give to the meeting. I continue to be convinced that it is not practical to conduct these meetings by email: In part because it is difficult to follow the course of the meeting, and in part because it causes the meeting to sprawl over long periods of time. It's hard for people to sustain attention and plan around an unbounded commitment like that. Personally, I'm finding it near impossible.

Given that it is March 2018 and this is still the 2017 meeting, I would urge that we admit defeat and terminate the meeting, with any items that were raised but which did not receive final vote tallies deferred to the 2018 meeting. As long as we have a Board and have re-authorized BPFK to continue its work, I think our job is done.

I would also urge that we schedule the 2018 meeting to take place at a time that is fixed and bounded. I don't see that we have more than a few hours of business to discuss. This may be obscured by the fact that complex measures with little prior discussion and apparently little support have been introduced for debate. When the meeting drags out for months and people lose the thread or become distracted with other matters, we risk enacting decisions that don't accurately reflect the will of the body or of the community that we serve. This defeats the purpose of the meeting.

I would urge my fellow members to introduce and debate complex and controversial matters outside of the meeting, so that we can keep the meetings to a reasonable length. Debates don't gain anything from the meeting format, where they have to compete for attention with other meeting business, and where visibility and participation is limited to LLG members.

--Riley



On Feb 26, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:

On 2/25/2018 7:30 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:

Why is everyone silent? What should the next actions be?


I believe that the meeting is not over.

My understanding is that Karen is dealing with a severe family health situation involving her elderly mother.

I could in theory take over running the meeting as VP, but I admit that I haven't been following the meeting that closely due to health and family distractions, and I am not sure what the status is regarding the rats nest of motions that were all on the floor at once.

And I am not sure that mukti as secretary is following closely either, due to his frequent traveling.  Otherwise, he could inform us as to his understanding of the status of all motions, and I could take over the meeting on that basis.

Thus I suggest we just hang on for a little while longer and hope that Karen checks in soon, and she can then decide to finish the meeting or turn over the chair to me with the status made clear.

lojbab

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members


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