Received: from localhost ([::1]:54664 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1euthN-0006iV-MP; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 21:39:09 -0800 Received: from mail-ot0-f171.google.com ([74.125.82.171]:39638) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eutgq-0006gd-Gd for llg-members@lojban.org; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 21:38:37 -0800 Received: by mail-ot0-f171.google.com with SMTP id h8so12356249oti.6 for ; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 21:38:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1ZvSWIOf1CRJVMc9cO0oTK7o+9Tk/ZrnB0KuE9/sOEQ=; b=JeaO/WXW8dYO1I2AxgeJuGWuirfBjlig+BCDBOp9u5tahqg0L2k9YbuVW3kNozK3g8 rSxD8OMu38N5e4nCfynmPnHnIkrVMSRdvD90rNX3nlwodilyuyiW7LXSbmGoJSImSAx2 LDgzTo63jO4UYgLjyX1s8xlUvfbQf2mTG1aSaQT+EPtexo7JEAS4uN8pak471xG14nhz FuB8rdko/9LHCgdu8q2YTDadpXe24pKQvOewg/msf6CZx9EuC4XUfwxcsMq2S4U2Ifmz 3/Wo8jd3tAZcl56brykUAuEEYr4rapI2keEo8l+9bywrbUcVk4ISbhicMRVPS/X31h7C 9izQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=1ZvSWIOf1CRJVMc9cO0oTK7o+9Tk/ZrnB0KuE9/sOEQ=; b=mlUfcAhaREXf4bqFEn/jvY40YwgjFRExZAk+EFXmZuT7uiaB99JeLEMrqPDWJ0raG9 vC8VixULprnctSx9QGEivJwRyWjX4Ffdk/4kPR2lS0pMaKMbypu5qn6IjkWj+0aEAzV9 MWN8QLlZRZqAQAHoWDU0ozD0hglkSKAuzfMDeaMBrE7egTZwDp60kGFcmJD2mErd7zOQ SqaPF3EwQziTst1GddVhhKiG07ckAxwpaUVRZOzLnGRUzgFQg9efqZCrJUSnGerL9I8x NVQQhz0xaaSkpHx8GZ6WFzXdzN4fYX9JgjXIhbLqd995WF4QBx4PGWo2nGNY9espEo1e z+hA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HIyCehag4LNkMy242jxLyCl2fPoxdXDBNRpap1DuPo51m1OseT QcjXPJ7jnm/UWaPaQAPB6/8Qz72nt+VG0KrExQt/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvD6t2dBUOO7hL2ga4QY299sVLZ7+hBdRon0xUr7OxTO3B7JMHOZzgIqlEtb/kBKFMVBe15g5VRglrqNxVXOJ4= X-Received: by 10.157.37.73 with SMTP id j9mr2840879otd.224.1520746710006; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 21:38:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.201.70.202 with HTTP; Sat, 10 Mar 2018 21:37:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <58E7EB12-0A74-4057-95BA-1CA5FB6ED8DF@gmail.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 08:37:49 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Meeting over? X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0295134011628416776==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============0295134011628416776== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113d69e671818605671c6f70" --001a113d69e671818605671c6f70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2018-03-11 4:24 GMT+03:00 Gregorio Guidi : > Apologies for the intrusion in the conversation, I am not an LLG member > and I followed the meeting as an observer. > > Back in December, solpahi had the following to say: > > *Lojban is dead. > > The BPFK is dead, the LLG is dead. These meetings are nothing more than > something the LLG must do once a year, but everyone dreads the meetings > and they never achieve anything useful. > > That's why I was going to propose that LLG dissolve itself according to > Article 11 of the Bylaws (**https://mw.lojban.org/papri/LLG_Bylaws_(2007)= * *). > If you think LLG should not dissolve itself, then you should be able to s= ay why. > Find good reasons why we need the LLG, because if you don't find any good= reasons, > it will continue to be pointless.* > > > At the time I thought this was quite exaggerated. But having followed the > meeting until now and having seen the depressing ending it reached (if it > is an ending), then I can only come to the conclusion that solpahi was 10= 0% > right - and it pains me to admit it. It really doesn't speak well for the > organization that the voting process cannot be brought to an end because > tallying the votes is too difficult (if it can help, my unofficial count = is > reported below). And what about the plans to discuss "New business"? > > Perhaps, then, it would make sense to go back to the suggestion of solpah= i > and put on the table of the meeting the dissolution of the LLG, as a fina= l > point? > Or at least dismantle the BPFK as a committee, and leave Lojban in the > hands of the volunteers that are willing to take care of it. I think it > would make sense as a last attempt to try to reverse - citing again solpa= hi > - "the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan". > > Gregorio > > You can read earlier LLG meetings here: http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members LLG meetings has been such for more than 10 years. > *LLG Goals: logical languages* > "*The LLG shall adopt, as a principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any > other principal goals), the intention of exploration and promotion of > logical language(s) in general, subject to the following definitional > framework and description: Presupposing that everything effable (i.e. > linguistically expressible) can be represented as a predicate-argument > structure (PAS), a logical language (in the technical sense, i.e. loglang= ) > is one that (syntactically-)unambiguously bidirectionally encodes an > unlimited number of PASs. (Also known by some as the 'monoparsing' > property. The relevant bidirectionality is conversion both from PAS to > phonological form and from phonological form to PAS.)*" > > Curtis Franks: Aye > Thomas Porter: Aye > Gleki: Nay > > *LLG Goals: Lojban* > "*A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals) is > promotion of Lojban (regardless of its status as a logical language) as > defined by documents endorsed by the LLG.*" > > Curtis Franks: Aye > Thomas Porter: Nay > Gleki: Aye > > *LLG Goals: Lojban derivative* > "*A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals) is > creation of a Lojban derivative that is a logical language.*" > > Thomas Porter: Aye > Gleki: Nay > > *Unofficial Social Media Presences* > "*It is moved that the LLG adopt an official policy that the LLG or some > body constituted by it for such purpose search for and monitor social med= ia > or blog platforms, accounts, pages, profiles, groups, communities, bots, > etc. (hereafter called "entities") which in any way whatsoever relate to, > promote, or use Lojban or other LLG-adopted logical languages and which a= re > not clearly human, personal, non-promoting, or unofficial - and that such= a > body requests such entities to prominently display a disclaimer stating > that they are unofficial and not endorsed by the LLG.*" > > Adam Lopresto: Nay > Curtis Franks: Nay > Pierre Abbat: Nay > selpa'i: Nay > guskant: Nay > Alex Burka: Nay > Gleki: Nay > Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay > > > *Unofficial Disclaimer *"*All non-official pages or content on *.**lojban= .org > ** must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that > the website is owned and managed by voluntary people, and that the marked > contents are not necessarily harmonized with the official design of Lojba= n > and may not reflect, let alone perfectly comply with, official > specifications of the same.*" > > Adam Lopresto: Nay > guskant: Aye > Gleki: Aye > Curtis Franks: Aye > Alex Burka: Aye > Pierre Abbat: Aye > karis: Aye > Thomas Porter: Aye > Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay > > > * Constitution of a an Enforcing Body *See http://mail.lojban.org/ > mailman/private/llg-members/2018-January/001810.html > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/private/llg-members/ > 2018-January/001817.html > > Adam Lopresto: Nay > Curtis Franks: Aye > Thomas Porter: Aye > Alex Burka: Nay > Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay > > *Election of BPFK Chair* > selpa'i for BPFK Chair. > > Adam Lopresto: Aye > Ilmen: Aye > Alex Burka: Aye > Riley Martinez-Lynch: Aye > xorxes: Aye > Curtis Franks: Aye > guskant: Aye > Gleki: Aye > Pierre Abbat: Aye > karis: Aye > > > > On 03/05/2018 03:39 PM, Riley Martinez-Lynch wrote: > > I am not traveling, but like Karen, I am distracted by other commitments. > > This is not the kind of attention that I'd like to give to the meeting. I= continue to be convinced that it is not practical to conduct these meeting= s by email: In part because it is difficult to follow the course of the mee= ting, and in part because it causes the meeting to sprawl over long periods= of time. It's hard for people to sustain attention and plan around an unbo= unded commitment like that. Personally, I'm finding it near impossible. > > Given that it is March 2018 and this is still the 2017 meeting, I would u= rge that we admit defeat and terminate the meeting, with any items that wer= e raised but which did not receive final vote tallies deferred to the 2018 = meeting. As long as we have a Board and have re-authorized BPFK to continue= its work, I think our job is done. > > I would also urge that we schedule the 2018 meeting to take place at a ti= me that is fixed and bounded. I don't see that we have more than a few hour= s of business to discuss. This may be obscured by the fact that complex mea= sures with little prior discussion and apparently little support have been = introduced for debate. When the meeting drags out for months and people los= e the thread or become distracted with other matters, we risk enacting deci= sions that don't accurately reflect the will of the body or of the communit= y that we serve. This defeats the purpose of the meeting. > > I would urge my fellow members to introduce and debate complex and contro= versial matters outside of the meeting, so that we can keep the meetings to= a reasonable length. Debates don't gain anything from the meeting format, = where they have to compete for attention with other meeting business, and w= here visibility and participation is limited to LLG members. > > --Riley > > > > On Feb 26, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > > On 2/25/2018 7:30 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > Why is everyone silent? What should the next actions be? > > I believe that the meeting is not over. > > My understanding is that Karen is dealing with a severe family health sit= uation involving her elderly mother. > > I could in theory take over running the meeting as VP, but I admit that I= haven't been following the meeting that closely due to health and family d= istractions, and I am not sure what the status is regarding the rats nest o= f motions that were all on the floor at once. > > And I am not sure that mukti as secretary is following closely either, du= e to his frequent traveling. Otherwise, he could inform us as to his under= standing of the status of all motions, and I could take over the meeting on= that basis. > > Thus I suggest we just hang on for a little while longer and hope that Ka= ren checks in soon, and she can then decide to finish the meeting or turn o= ver the chair to me with the status made clear. > > lojbab > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing listLlg-members@lojban.orghttp://mail.lojban.org/mail= man/listinfo/llg-members > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing listLlg-members@lojban.orghttp://mail.lojban.org/mail= man/listinfo/llg-members > > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --001a113d69e671818605671c6f70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2018-03-11 4:24 GMT+03:00 Gregorio Guidi <greg_g@posteo.net>:
=20 =20 =20
Apologies for= the intrusion in the conversation, I am not an LLG member and I followed the meeting as an observer.

Back in December, solpahi had the following to say:

Lojban is dead.

The BPFK is dead, the LLG is dead. These meetings are nothing more than=20
something the LLG must do once a year, but everyone dreads the meetings=20
and they never achieve anything useful.

That's why I was going to propose that LLG dissolve itself according to=
=20
Article 11 of the Bylaws (https://mw.lojban.org/papri/LLG_Byl=
aws_(2007)).
If you think LLG should not dissolve itself, then you should be able to say=
 why.
Find good reasons why we need the LLG, because if you don't find any go=
od reasons,=20
it will continue to be pointless.

At the time I thought this was quite exaggerated. But having followed the meeting until now and having seen the depressing ending it reached (if it is an ending), then I can only come to the conclusion that solpahi was 100% right - and it pains me to admit it. It really doesn't speak well for the organization that the voting process cannot be brought to an end because tallying the votes is too difficult (if it can help, my unofficial count is reported below). And what about the plans to discuss "New business"?

Perhaps, then, it would make sense to go back to the suggestion of solpahi and put on the table of the meeting the dissolution of the LLG, as a final point?
Or at least dismantle the BPFK as a committee, and leave Lojban in the hands of the volunteers that are willing to take care of it. I think it would make sense as a last attempt to try to reverse - citing again solpahi - "the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan".

Gregorio



You c= an read earlier LLG meetings here:=C2=A0http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-me= mbers
LLG meetings has been such for more than 10 years.
<= /div>



LLG Goals: logical languages
"The LLG shall adopt, as a principal goal o= f the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals), the intention of exploration and promotion of logical language(s) in general, subject to the following definitional framework and description: Presupposing that everything effable (i.e. linguistically expressible) can be represented as a predicate-argument structure (PAS), a logical language (in the technical sense, i.e. loglang) is one that (syntactically-)unambiguously bidirectionally encodes an unlimited number of PASs. (Also known by some as the 'monoparsing' property. The relevant bidirectionality is conversion both from PAS to phonological form and from phonological form to PAS.)"

Curtis Franks: Aye
Thomas Porter: Aye
Gleki: Nay

LLG Goals: Lojban
"A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with = any other principal goals) is promotion of Lojban (regardless of its status as a logical language) as defined by documents endorsed by the LLG."

Curtis Franks: Aye
Thomas Porter: Nay
Gleki: Aye

LLG Goals: Lojban derivative
"A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with = any other principal goals) is creation of a Lojban derivative that is a logical language."

Thomas Porter: Aye
Gleki: Nay

Unofficial Social Media Presences
"It is moved that the LLG adopt an official policy that the LLG or some body constituted by it for such purpose search for and monitor social media or blog platforms, accounts, pages, profiles, groups, communities, bots, etc. (hereafter called "entities") which in any way whatsoev= er relate to, promote, or use Lojban or other LLG-adopted logical languages and which are not clearly human, personal, non-promoting, or unofficial - and that such a body requests such entities to prominently display a disclaimer stating that they are unofficial and not endorsed by the LLG."=

Adam Lopresto: Nay
Curtis Franks: Nay
Pierre Abbat: Nay
selpa'i: Nay
guskant: Nay
Alex Burka: Nay
Gleki: Nay
Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay

Unofficial Disclaimer
"All non-official pages or content on *= .= lojban.org must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owned and managed by voluntary people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized with the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly comply with, official specifications of the same."

Adam Lopresto: Nay
guskant: Aye
Gleki: Aye
Curtis Franks: Aye
Alex Burka: Aye
Pierre Abbat: Aye
karis: Aye
Thomas Porter: Aye
Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay

Constitution of a an Enforcing Body
See http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/private/llg-members/2018-January/001810.html
http://mail.lojban.org/mail= man/private/llg-members/2018-January/001817.html

Adam Lopresto: Nay
Curtis Franks: Aye
Thomas Porter: Aye
Alex Burka: Nay
Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay

Election of BPFK Chair
selpa'i for BPFK Chair.

Adam Lopresto: Aye
Ilmen: Aye
Alex Burka: Aye
Riley Martinez-Lynch: Aye
xorxes: Aye
Curtis Franks: Aye
guskant: Aye
Gleki: Aye
Pierre Abbat: Aye
karis: Aye



On 03/05/2018 03:39 PM, Riley Martinez-Lynch wrote:
I am not traveling, but like Karen, I am distracted by other com=
mitments.

This is not the kind of attention that I'd like to give to the meeting.=
 I continue to be convinced that it is not practical to conduct these meeti=
ngs by email: In part because it is difficult to follow the course of the m=
eeting, and in part because it causes the meeting to sprawl over long perio=
ds of time. It's hard for people to sustain attention and plan around a=
n unbounded commitment like that. Personally, I'm finding it near impos=
sible.

Given that it is March 2018 and this is still the 2017 meeting, I would urg=
e that we admit defeat and terminate the meeting, with any items that were =
raised but which did not receive final vote tallies deferred to the 2018 me=
eting. As long as we have a Board and have re-authorized BPFK to continue i=
ts work, I think our job is done.

I would also urge that we schedule the 2018 meeting to take place at a time=
 that is fixed and bounded. I don't see that we have more than a few ho=
urs of business to discuss. This may be obscured by the fact that complex m=
easures with little prior discussion and apparently little support have bee=
n introduced for debate. When the meeting drags out for months and people l=
ose the thread or become distracted with other matters, we risk enacting de=
cisions that don't accurately reflect the will of the body or of the co=
mmunity that we serve. This defeats the purpose of the meeting.

I would urge my fellow members to introduce and debate complex and controve=
rsial matters outside of the meeting, so that we can keep the meetings to a=
 reasonable length. Debates don't gain anything from the meeting format=
, where they have to compete for attention with other meeting business, and=
 where visibility and participation is limited to LLG members.

--Riley



On Feb 26, 2018, at 1:02 PM, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:

On 2/25/2018 7:30 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:

Why is everyone silent? What should the next actions be?

I believe that the meeting is not over.

My understanding is that Karen is dealing with a severe family health situa=
tion involving her elderly mother.

I could in theory take over running the meeting as VP, but I admit that I h=
aven't been following the meeting that closely due to health and family=
 distractions, and I am not sure what the status is regarding the rats nest=
 of motions that were all on the floor at once.

And I am not sure that mukti as secretary is following closely either, due =
to his frequent traveling.  Otherwise, he could inform us as to his underst=
anding of the status of all motions, and I could take over the meeting on t=
hat basis.

Thus I suggest we just hang on for a little while longer and hope that Kare=
n checks in soon, and she can then decide to finish the meeting or turn ove=
r the chair to me with the status made clear.

lojbab

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://ma=
il.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://ma=
il.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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