Received: from localhost ([::1]:53410 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eyhbz-0004tJ-Ox; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 10:33:19 -0700 Received: from mail-ua0-f177.google.com ([209.85.217.177]:34872) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eyhbT-0004sI-D8 for llg-members@lojban.org; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 10:32:48 -0700 Received: by mail-ua0-f177.google.com with SMTP id c40so3832614uae.2 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 10:32:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=MvwiT83wF2y3GgZ5Q3vMzogJ709g+7dGxxlbb7DZW04=; b=ir7UnqeiPiUaVyzCLGoLTMXUV6XTj8xi6WtshNOe2CxTgyTY4NYbuXjrUvr/Apx5vY yBeusLLW8xlQrAq2xWfHQHLAX9Dj101PBIJYweTXqISjiK+r4T+miB8IXMrUEy0bvO7F 2+2it4JFzOejILZfXKOTf/6v/Zpfy2LmvD0prjcQelZg1TNWmAOKmKvTweKXdVnPekns 7usUw32CicQ6d8Ty6b24Kka3TO//IUE6fQ7ytV12VnOMNema23iI0KfeZkyUgbJS89uS HNyhFMEyv6kT7MOzdjXA7pQCG+jm++3By6CUbA/6PqL9JwhYh7GuLx9nNC5o3ihyWZXK tAWw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=MvwiT83wF2y3GgZ5Q3vMzogJ709g+7dGxxlbb7DZW04=; b=H9qet2ys/SPHlvW+7aGVw6f7DI66aNj83tmTemAel05Sq+hL6wSzk+I1AoEBnsE7fh SWWkylxrnpkBI73rCUQn5aP9vmAS4VgHDpcfAmMrTgvwyq+veWqAPruYv8QpAEgN7D27 aNefjaYdS3C/bFhWk/Q9f5pXlHFuB+wzZDzTRmiGT2uNrF3fe1n7wtNwDvA59Q8q1eaT Ehc7UByQByP0Ofl+gA6h5fLcC0zRkAj0ltkmT0MD8/0GJ/tcep8XYT+godPCShWSSorV jOGR5H4/ay7l9FB+Yhf+zs8qO67nHBV+TVjwkJ76H5sFghbRn2CAgdxU+smvtNsHtFDd SaZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HZZ3n/gO2R/uWr7W025vm1MLmmSUJ/p7xwcqmylxQ8HAjBYKNl RnYu+HyexufZSPmLsVmYkqLRMj5WnQQ5Jc92lTI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuIce87Jiu/usYXC6FXwuaaDBBNfquJ4lPtl4Rk2KSF8v4Zo2AtiJN3Ct0srPXVYVtCToVQnsZHH80okS7AxsY= X-Received: by 10.176.64.199 with SMTP id i65mr14293716uad.185.1521653560264; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 10:32:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.18.80 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 10:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.176.18.80 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 10:32:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <911780df-0d1e-0137-8efd-83a3e6a80e47@selpahi.de> <1cc70426-111b-0d0a-80e3-b568b4e77cf1@lojban.org> From: Creative Care Services Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:32:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Vote to Adjourn, cast your ballot here X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1915309414977382664==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============1915309414977382664== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c122c18ee54f30567ef936b" --94eb2c122c18ee54f30567ef936b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Please, Guskant and selpa'i, as well as anyone else with concerns or issues not covered in this meeting, raise those topics here (clearly identified as was suggested) once this meeting closes. This will happen in the next couple of days. Please do so even if you also raise them in the broader group to make sure the active members and entire Board see and have a chance to discuss them. I also hope that as I become more adept at running meetings in an off site manner and as we find better Settings to have them we will be able to show Guskant and selpa'i, as well as others that participation is worth their while. Also please, please continue the important work both of you have and are doing too improve and advance lojban. .karis. On Mar 20, 2018 19:14, "Alex Burka" wrote: > FWIW I share selpa'i's frustration that we never got to new business. The > (arguable) hijacking of old business to debate numerous interlocking, > convoluted motions was part of the problem, as well as the meeting format > not fitting the medium (I think we have more than enough evidence the > Robert's-Rules-over-email is about as efficient as IP-over-carrier-pigeon > ). Whether this means a new format > is needed, or LLG is just not the place to get anything done, I can't say. > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Bob LeChevalier > wrote: > >> On 3/18/2018 11:31 AM, guskant wrote: >> >>> The LLG has >>> been neglecting the problems I raised for two years, and additionally, >>> you have let me loose my chance for raising two motions that I >>> prepared for "New Business" in this meeting, although I repeatedly >>> told you in this meeting that I was only waiting for the time of >>> talking about the subject. >>> >> >> I suggest that as soon as the meeting is actually adjourned that you >> raise these topics just as you intended, , on this list, but outside the >> formal meeting. You might consider spacing them out by a week or so. I >> also suggest clearly marking each numerically as "topic 1", "topic 2", so >> people can keep them straight if to many topics are active at one time. >> >> You can state these as potential motions, or perhaps better, talk about >> the issues, and wait until things are well discussed before formalizing >> them. The officers will then use these discussions as a starting point for >> the agenda of the 2018 meeting, or possibly the Board can consider and >> adopt policies even before the 2018 meeting. >> >> I make the same suggestion to selpa'i who felt that some things need to >> be discussed that weren't. If he wants things to be discussed, please >> raise them for discussion immediately after the formal meeting ends. You >> can have your say and get youir desired subjects discussed even if not >> still a member because I doubt that mukti will remove you from the list >> quickly (unless you ask him to do so). And you won't be bound by the >> formalism of either LLG as an organization, or by byfy membership (I'm not >> sure most people know who current members of byfy are). Again, I suggest >> numbering topics if more than one is discussed so people can keep the >> threads distinct in their minds even if they don't read the list every day. >> >> Also, for either of you and anyone else, if you want a larger audience to >> discuss a topic than the LLG membership plus hangers on, consider raising >> the topic in the main Lojban List rather than in the members list. >> >> The organization is changing as it moves on from having me in charge, but >> not daily active due to health, to new people who aren't yet familiar with >> running meetings online. The issues can be discussed and then however the >> community decides, the organizations (LLG, byfy, or whatever) can decide >> whether they are capable and best suited for implementing those decisions >> and managing any ongoing organized activity(s). >> >> lojbab >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --94eb2c122c18ee54f30567ef936b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please, Guskant and selpa'i, as well as anyone else w= ith concerns or issues not covered in this meeting, raise those topics here= (clearly identified as was suggested) once this meeting closes. This will = happen in the next couple of days. Please do so even if you also raise them= in the broader group to make sure the active members and entire Board see = and have a chance to discuss them.

I also hope that as I become more adept at running meetings in an off = site manner and as we find better Settings to have them we will be able to = show Guskant and selpa'i, as well as others that participation is worth= their while. Also please, please continue the important work both of you h= ave and are doing too improve and advance lojban.
.karis.=C2=A0

On Mar 20, 2018 19:14, "Alex Burka&q= uot; <durka42@gmail.com> wro= te:
FWIW I share selpa'i's frustration that we never got to new busine= ss. The (arguable) hijacking of old business to debate numerous interlockin= g, convoluted motions was part of the problem, as well as the meeting forma= t not fitting the medium (I think we have more than enough evidence the Rob= ert's-Rules-over-email is about as efficient as IP-over-carrier-pigeon). Wh= ether this means a new format is needed, or LLG is just not the place to ge= t anything done, I can't say.

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Bob LeChevalier = <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
On 3/18/2018 11:31 AM, guskant wrote:
The LLG has
been neglecting the problems I raised for two years, and additionally,
you have let me loose my chance for raising two motions that I
prepared for "New Business" in this meeting, although I repeatedl= y
told you in this meeting that I was only waiting for the time of
talking about the subject.

 I suggest that as soon as the meeting is actually adjourned that you raise = these topics just as you intended, , on this list, but outside the formal m= eeting.=C2=A0 You might consider spacing them out by a week or so.=C2=A0 I = also suggest clearly marking each numerically as "topic 1", "= ;topic 2", so people can keep them straight if to many topics are acti= ve at one time.

You can state these as potential motions, or perhaps better, talk about the= issues, and wait until things are well discussed before formalizing them.= =C2=A0 The officers will then use these discussions as a starting point for= the agenda of the 2018 meeting, or possibly the Board can consider and ado= pt policies even before the 2018 meeting.

I make the same suggestion to selpa'i who felt that some things need to= be discussed that weren't.=C2=A0 If he wants things to be discussed, p= lease raise them for discussion immediately after the formal meeting ends. = You can have your say and get youir desired subjects discussed even if not = still a member because I doubt that mukti will remove you from the list qui= ckly (unless you ask him to do so).=C2=A0 And you won't be bound by the= formalism of either LLG as an organization, or by byfy membership (I'm= not sure most people know who current members of byfy are).=C2=A0 Again, I= suggest numbering topics if more than one is discussed so people can keep = the threads distinct in their minds even if they don't read the list ev= ery day.

Also, for either of you and anyone else, if you want a larger audience to d= iscuss a topic than the LLG membership plus hangers on, consider raising th= e topic in the main Lojban List rather than in the members list.

The organization is changing as it moves on from having me in charge, but n= ot daily active due to health, to new people who aren't yet familiar wi= th running meetings online.=C2=A0 The issues can be discussed and then howe= ver the community decides, the organizations (LLG, byfy, or whatever) can d= ecide whether they are capable and best suited for implementing those decis= ions and managing any ongoing organized activity(s).

lojbab


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members

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