From lojbab@lojban.org Sat Jul 16 11:34:05 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list llg-members); Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lakermmtao03.cox.net ([68.230.240.36]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DtrU7-0004Ms-Jo for llg-members@lojban.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:34:03 -0700 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (really [24.250.99.39]) by lakermmtao03.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050716183353.ZHO23050.lakermmtao03.cox.net@[192.168.1.101]> for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:33:53 -0400 Message-ID: <42D95380.802@lojban.org> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:35:44 -0400 From: Bob LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: llg-members@lojban.org Subject: [llg-members] Re: Supplicatory Model: papri References: <20050716010140.GU2444@chain.digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: <20050716010140.GU2444@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 25 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: llg-members@lojban.org X-list: llg-members Robin Lee Powell wrote: > xorxes and I are fighting over whether "papri" can be used for web > page, as though the definition was "x1 ia a page of mass of pages > x2". In other words, is the "[physical]" in the definition intended > to have prescriptive force? From the historical perspective, yes. Specifically, the definition of papri arose from a related issue, which was whether cukta is a physical object (a bound mass of pages, aka a tome or volume), or whether it was a "work" by an author or authors (which might be written or printed in a physical bound mass of pages, or in some other format). We considered the question of how to describe a blank book or unwritten diary - a physical book that is empty of text - a physical book as container for a logical book. We also considered the question of a logical work "book" that fills many physical volumes. The upshot of all this was that cukta is used for a work, and papri/selpapri is used for a page/volume. In a cukta, a numbered page or logical page is, as And suggested, a cukta ke jvinu selci ja pagbu. How one would shorten that to an acceptable lujvo depends on what one thinks is important about a page, and how one wants to construct the place structure. By contrast, because a papri is a physical "page" or "leaf", it contains two sides, and thus usually contains two logical "pages". Thus a metaphorical extension of papri to web page, as And mentions, has an additional problem. You'd want to use a lujvo based on a tanru like papri-sefta or papri-flira to refer to the physical component corresponding to a logical page of a cukta. The second problem with a web page as metaphorically based on book pages is that in fact the web isn't really a single work, bound together. There are unlinked web pages that aren't bound to anything, and of course the entire mass is a multitude of works. Nor is an individual website a selpapri. In the context of lojban.org as it has been, you have the tiki, the old wiki, lojban.org, your mailing list archives,a nd who knows what else. What would be the selpapri for any particular web-page-as papri, given that a web page might not be part of a larger work. It isn't clear because the metaphor is flawed. It seems to me that the web is another example of a concept that has occurred often, for which we do not have a good word - a network with nodes. It also turns up when discussing telephone and email networks. In historical days we thought that ciste and/or julne would be good enough, but that was when metaphor was more acceptable. I would find it easy to support a new gismu for the concept of a network with nodes, leading to a web page as a logical node in a particular network of stored information. lojbab