From lojbab@lojban.org Sun Jul 24 16:04:34 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list llg-members); Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao03.cox.net ([68.230.240.36]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1DwpWI-0001cB-4I for llg-members@lojban.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:04:32 -0700 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (really [24.250.99.39]) by eastrmmtao03.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050724230413.XAZK11541.eastrmmtao03.cox.net@[192.168.1.101]> for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:04:13 -0400 Message-ID: <42E41EF9.3090601@lojban.org> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:06:33 -0400 From: Bob LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: llg-members@lojban.org Subject: [llg-members] Re: Supplicatory Model: papri References: <20050716010140.GU2444@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <42D95380.802@lojban.org> <20050718044439.GE2444@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <42DB5132.1040507@lojban.org> <925d1756050722083624970a05@mail.gmail.com> <007d01c58f19$acc170c0$973e0751@sonyvaio> <1122077937.2288.0.camel@localhost> <20050723002055.GL2444@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <42E19A4B.7010904@lojban.org> <20050724005858.GE17178@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <00ef01c5909e$bec80820$973e0751@sonyvaio> In-Reply-To: <00ef01c5909e$bec80820$973e0751@sonyvaio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 41 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: llg-members@lojban.org X-list: llg-members And Rosta wrote: > I agree, so long as looking at pictures Young kids read picture books >& listening to sounds counts > as "reading" Blind people read with braille (touch), so why should hearing be forbidden as a reading method? >> Can you clarify this? >> >> More generally, please pick a web page (any web page), and describe >> it using all 5 places of cukta. > > I find that regardless of what sort of cukta is involved, I don't know > how to use all 5 places of "cukta". "x1 is book containing work x2 by > author x3 for audience x4 preserved in medium x5". It seems to me > that "book" corresponds to both "se cukta" and "xe cukta", "Book" corresponds to cukta, se cukta and xe cukta, but they are different senses of "book" mi ca viska lo cukta be la'o gic. 1989 edition of Loglan 1 gic. bei la djeims. kuk. braun. bei loi jbopre bei loi se papri pelji The x1 is a specific physical object, one of many that contains the work in question; it also happens to be lo se papri, but I can look on the loglan.org website to find a different x5 form of the same x1. If I make a copy of that website on my local computer, I might talk about it as a distinct x1 from the copy on whatever host maintains their website. By contrast, an anthology might contain several works by one or more authors all in one volume. The Bible is a single volume x1 book containing multiple x2 books. Zondervan (a religious publisher) has published an x5 edition of the Bible containing translations of several x2 books, and they will do a print run of thousands of x1 books containing these x2 books in media form x5 book. > It still seems to me, though, that "cukta" would apply to documents in > general (including webpages) as much as it does to books. A document is more likely to be lo se cukta - a work. If you and I have paper copies of a document, we usually say just that - we don't claim that we have two documents but two copies/books containing one work/document. lojbab