From lojbab@lojban.org Sun Jul 24 21:32:51 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list llg-members); Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao01.cox.net ([68.230.240.38]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Dwudy-0005XA-3v for llg-members@lojban.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:32:49 -0700 Received: from [192.168.1.101] (really [24.250.99.39]) by eastrmmtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050725043233.CZJQ16044.eastrmmtao01.cox.net@[192.168.1.101]> for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:32:33 -0400 Message-ID: <42E46BF5.20107@lojban.org> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 00:35:01 -0400 From: Bob LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: llg-members@lojban.org Subject: [llg-members] Re: Supplicatory Model: papri References: <20050716010140.GU2444@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <42D95380.802@lojban.org> <20050718044439.GE2444@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <42DB5132.1040507@lojban.org> <925d1756050722083624970a05@mail.gmail.com> <007d01c58f19$acc170c0$973e0751@sonyvaio> <1122077937.2288.0.camel@localhost> <20050723002055.GL2444@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <42E19A4B.7010904@lojban.org> <20050724005858.GE17178@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <00ef01c5909e$bec80820$973e0751@sonyvaio> <42E41EF9.3090601@lojban.org> <011701c590ac$a2b14b70$973e0751@sonyvaio> In-Reply-To: <011701c590ac$a2b14b70$973e0751@sonyvaio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 45 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: llg-members@lojban.org X-list: llg-members And Rosta wrote: > lojbab: >> And Rosta wrote: >> >>> I agree, so long as looking at pictures >> >> Young kids read picture books >> >>> & listening to sounds counts >>> as "reading" >> >> Blind people read with braille (touch), so why should hearing be >> forbidden as a reading method? > > I was thinking of nontextual webpages that may merely display pictures > or play sounds. There are picture books for young kids that have no text on the pages. >>>> Can you clarify this? >>>> >>>> More generally, please pick a web page (any web page), and describe >>>> it using all 5 places of cukta. >>> >>> I find that regardless of what sort of cukta is involved, I don't >>> know how to use all 5 places of "cukta". "x1 is book containing work >>> x2 by >>> author x3 for audience x4 preserved in medium x5". It seems to me >>> that "book" corresponds to both "se cukta" and "xe cukta", >> >> "Book" corresponds to cukta, se cukta and xe cukta, but they are >> different senses of "book" >> >> mi ca viska lo cukta be la'o gic. 1989 edition of Loglan 1 gic. bei la >> djeims. kuk. braun. bei loi jbopre bei loi se papri pelji >> >> The x1 is a specific physical object, one of many that contains the >> work in question; it also happens to be lo se papri, but I can look on >> the loglan.org website to find a different x5 form of the same x1. If >> I make a copy of that website on my local computer, I might talk about >> it as a distinct x1 from the copy on whatever host maintains their >> website. > > I still don't get the difference between x1 and x5. In what sense does the > loglan website have a different x5 form of the same x1 rather than a > different x1 form of the same x2? The Loglan website version of Loglan 1 differs from my paper copy of Loglan 1 BOTH in x1 and x5. The Loglan website version of Loglan 1 differs from the copy I have on my computer only in x1; they have the same x5. My copy of the dead tree Loglan 1 and John Cowan's copy of the dead tree Loglan 1 are also different x1s but they share the same x5. I imagine that the future may include ebooks that both display text and read it to you aloud, in which case we can have a single instance of an x1 that is associated with more than one x5 value. While the website version has page numbers in its table of contents, one would be hard-pressed to determine the contents of page 364 of the web version (which uses one web page per chapter). But Cowan's and my copy of Loglan 1 have the determinable and identical content on page 364 as each other. >> By contrast, an anthology might contain several works by one or more >> authors all in one volume. The Bible is a single volume x1 book >> containing multiple x2 books. > > Surely not: surely an anthology & the bible are as much an abstract text > as any other text, and are not intrinsically physical. My copy of the Bible and your copy of the Bible (different x1 values) contain the same text (a single x2 value) or the same N books (a plural x2 value). If your copy is a computerized version, then it also differs in x5 as well as x1. If it were a King James translation and mine was a New International translation, then whether the x2 is "the same" probably depends on pragmatics. >> Zondervan (a religious publisher) has published an x5 edition of the >> Bible containing translations of several x2 books, and they will do a >> print run of thousands of x1 books containing these x2 books in media >> form x5 book. > > I appreciate the effort you've made in giving the example, but I am > flummoxed by it. Specifically the x1/x5 contrast. >>> It still seems to me, though, that "cukta" would apply to documents >>> in general (including webpages) as much as it does to books. >> >> A document is more likely to be lo se cukta - a work. If you and I >> have paper copies of a document, we usually say just that - we don't >> claim that we have two documents but two copies/books containing one >> work/document. > > But we might well claim to be holding documents in our hands, or heaping > them up on our desks -- so 'documents' can also be (xe) cukta. I don't see how a dead tree copy of L1 is any different in any of the 5 standard places whether it is in our hands or on our desks. One could have a stack of L1s on the desk, but that stack contains only one work (one value of x2), and it embodies only one medium (one value of x5) - printing on dead trees. lojbab