From lojbab@lojban.org Tue Aug 08 11:02:32 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list llg-members); Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao04.cox.net ([68.230.240.35]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1GAVuN-0004vl-Be for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:02:30 -0700 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (really [24.250.99.39]) by eastrmmtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.06.01 201-2131-130-101-20060113) with ESMTP id <20060808180225.HGPS25210.eastrmmtao04.cox.net@[127.0.0.1]> for ; Tue, 8 Aug 2006 14:02:25 -0400 Message-ID: <44D8D1B5.4020506@lojban.org> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 14:02:29 -0400 From: Bob LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: llg-members@lojban.org Subject: [llg-members] Re: LLG 2006 Annual Meeting Thread References: <20060707224943.GB18983@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <20060807041126.GE28190@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <44D6D0E3.30801@lojban.org> <20060807210506.GW27480@miranda.org> In-Reply-To: <20060807210506.GW27480@miranda.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 249 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: llg-members@lojban.org X-list: llg-members Jay F Kominek wrote: > On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 01:34:27AM -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > >>1. Per Gary Burgess's proxy, I would like some discussion of publishing >>some sort of Lojban dictionary, paper or otherwise. I'd prefer not to >>make a motion, but will put one on the floor if necessary. > > As far as I know, there has been no change to the plan, which involves > finishing the BPFK work, so we have proper definitions to print, before > printing a dictionary. Is this no longer acceptable? That was always my preference, but as I said, I was responding to the proxy that was given me which implied that he wanted it discussed. The relevant proxy statement, as a reminder, was "I ask him to vote in favor of any action that will arguably forward the cause of producing an officially certified Lojban dictionary, and otherwise abstain." Since it is not clear to me what actions the members can take in this meeting that will arguably forward said cause, I took this as a call for discussion, which he can read when he returns (he's technically been back from his first business trip and then had to travel overseas again a week later) > jbovlaste PDFs are available for download, and I think somebody went > and stuck one on Cafepress so you can order it half-decently bound. It is possible that this could be considered "publishing a dictionary" but I don't think it meets Gary's criteria. If such a thing is available, a link to it (clearly marking its unofficial status) would be desirable among the pages discussing resources for learners. Some people do prefer hardcopy. > If you or Gary are suggesting we do something official sooner, He seems to be doing so, though in fact there is nothing about timing in the proxy instruction so it is ambiguous. > What is it that people think ought to be made available before the > BPFK work and corrected CLL are available? That really is the question, and it would be good to get members' opinions, as well as those of the community at large. I suspect that LLG has done as well with its unofficial publication (Nick and Robin's lessons) as with its official ones, though we don't make any money on it. Technically (per Gary's proxy) jvolaste could be put into book form and byfy could "certify" it as being official, knowing that it is to be replaced as soon as we can do better. How well such a product would compare to the "draft dictionary file" I produced many years ago, I cannot say. I still like the style of my draft dictionary file and I don't use jbovlaste %^) (indeed, I personally really only use the gismu and cmavo lists, and am quite satisfied using them as plaintext files in a file list program.) jbovlaste in editable database form is by its nature perpetually a work in progress, and in fact dictionaries arguably should be; it also arguably originally seemed to be promoted as being unofficial in nature, though when it is the only thing being done that unofficialness tends to make no impression. People have told us and demonstrated that the language is not "real" unless they can hold a book in their hands (and some people simply don't like using online references, since they aren't constantly on-line; Nora is one of these, and Gary also would be if he were actively working on the language). Database systems are very un-booklike in their nature. For over 15 years, I promised a dictionary "soon" and I intended it to be one which was "official". My inability to produce what I thought was vital remains a sore spot. (The stagnation of byfy offers me the small consolation that it wasn't just me). I think our reputation with people who know what we are about will be as a "work in progress" until byfy and updated CLL are done. But among people we are recruiting, a book dictionary even if unofficial would mean something. Thus the relative priority of recruiting new Lojbanists comes into play as well. Now what does everyone else say? lojbab