From matt.mattarn@gmail.com Tue Oct 16 05:50:12 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list llg-members); Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.226]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ihlrf-0000lV-BI for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:50:09 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s18so1206751nze for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:49:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=fTaOjgmtdecXoRDEoq3zMk5hbsw4Af24pSMSl8pgdlw=; b=HHuh8Nm4OFckBlXv5zbLrsnxhf/kmuvVCIm0LkW9Atszozl4D/5dgqOSD0yRuBdKEeN/HYHmSx4aohAUN+vTST287zXPppQSvBayBQRGRk2u6Hdin11JCPRZeIRFNiGy0GOUIFlHoQlZxLzVrvupZH08B95ScZ9bCcQtJwAXaRs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=VBQDb0jrfQ6st/FN8WQy+bifDVkhtQKDpLEWzRqzTKrjJrkbDJ7vcjfxQCHh3U/gUBa/WTSQXRlV2w5vFOqNUrEFzBBz273eqfViZUWpCawLhBmNuaumb5YnWXbOC7Agg8NfGJfrgPmWu3EYzMKRYoiUQjRouHeVsbYK/LBJCL8= Received: by 10.115.107.1 with SMTP id j1mr8392892wam.1192538958967; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.16.20 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:49:18 -0400 From: "Matt Arnold" To: llg-members@lojban.org Subject: [llg-members] Re: LLG AGM 2007: The Most Common Word In The Language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 414 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: llg-members@lojban.org X-list: llg-members Gentlemen, Here are two points in favor of pro-xorlo action. Here is the first one. Lojbab has questioned whether we need new language learners when BPFK is incomplete. We do. They will ignore 99% of that incompleteness. Consider for a moment the fact that you value _my_ presence and participation. Lojbab told me of his appreciation in person at Logfest. And yet I do not need 99% of the work of the BPFK in order to enjoy my participation, or in order to do contribute social capital to this project. I ignore obscure Lojban words. The other 1% is xorlo. I use it and need it because I happen to personally find pre-xorlo gadri nearly useless to communication. When a new learner (who, I hope we have established, is not useless to us) begins, virtually the first thing they encounter will be gadri. In practical terms they are functionally illiterate without gadri. This issue concerns the most common word in the language. We use gadri to string together the sumti-selbri structure at the heart of the Lojban language. Given that you appreciate my participation, consider the harmful effect of turning off new Eppcotts. The kind of people who are willing to ignore BPFK but for whom gadri is a dealbreaker. The kind of people who don't care about pedantic specification themselves, but who are willing to organize Logfest and record podcasts because they enjoy hanging out with geeks. That is what's in it for me in supporting BPFK. I need you to get what you want, so that I can get what I want. What I am suggesting in this email is that this is a symbiosis, and that you need me to get what I want, so you can get what you want. Here is the second point. You have heard the argument that the BPFK needs to consider every change all at once, as a group, so that they can say "you can have your way in this part of the language if I can have my way in that part of the language". The mistake is putting together gadri with obscure words as if they were bargaining chips of equal value. The most important words at the beating heart of the language are {lo} and {le}. If someone wishes to dispute that absolute claim, feel free to soften it; it cannot be softened enough to make a serious difference to the outcome. The BPFK is also working on a lot of obscure words which are trinkets by comparison. Anyone who has done actual negotiation knows that to win, you have to know what the other person wants and withhold it until you get what you want. All someone has to do to get their way with every obscure word is threaten to withdraw support from xorlo. Then, after BPFK work is done and deliberation on the full baseline begins, they could get their way on the entire bulk of it by holding hostage the one part that is the most important to the entire Lojban community. As a member of the Board of Directors of the Logical Language Group, to respect the BPFK's eleven-to-zero current tally in favor of xorlo, to respect the existing usage of the active part of the Lojban community, I want to take xorlo off the bargaining table altogether. -Eppcott