From ted.reed@gmail.com Tue Oct 16 15:08:50 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list llg-members); Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.134.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ihual-0001Cm-Sx for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:08:50 -0700 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id i10so2819301mue for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:08:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=hno/snph+SrmKouzMZtr+gg0g1IiWmZ/CK/uSNY8PfU=; b=S8NmsJlxyZg39g2e6bIe4swRGrObIT58DFQ6AOALAjnFaene8b89axelv0a1sRDGGOOjcdkZz4peVDTZsRYopJUwIbY10RcsyM1gJjpzkCrwEud4dKPJ22bEdRQCGVpLqu3YAdm8WgbduLk0i8D21/kyA4gt8MmRzkzBX+tHme8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=fFe5kFYcN0fvDQg381jdjB+EV434nR5xnq+1TIcRLCVSgwogvlKOioWiYpPCx2TH4+lgalMee/sw60yg5HXJgIVDmTpZf+aRHXhWQ7UcaWrLpJ010pDTBDGp875Pk30uksQNRnW1Z2dN43v+1QBDKn1SDwlvEz+QggEqN5X+npI= Received: by 10.82.162.14 with SMTP id k14mr14092566bue.1192572525119; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.150.15 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:08:44 -0700 From: "Theodore Reed" To: llg-members@lojban.org Subject: [llg-members] Re: LLG AGM 2007: New Business In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20070918181955.GW10667@nvg.org> <20071010000942.GZ10376@digitalkingdom.org> <20071011190654.GO13890@digitalkingdom.org> <20071013110233.GU1196@nvg.org> <20071016193843.GI5630@digitalkingdom.org> <20071016194330.GF28745@mercury.ccil.org> <20071016202338.GL5630@digitalkingdom.org> <20071016213405.GG28745@mercury.ccil.org> <20071016213807.GO5630@digitalkingdom.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 442 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: llg-members-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: ted.reed@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: llg-members@lojban.org X-list: llg-members On 10/16/07, Theodore Reed wrote: > On 10/16/07, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > 17:16 < gunspoja> can someone explain the usage of "veridical" in the definitions for le and lo > > 17:16 < gunspoja> veridical meaning "coinciding with reality", apparently > > 17:16 <@bancus> ignore those > > 17:16 <@bancus> read up on xorlo > > 17:17 < gunspoja> ignore them because they are wrong, or just confusing? > > 17:17 <@bancus> they're not wrong yet > > 17:17 < gunspoja> yet? :/ uanai > > 17:17 <@bancus> but will be when the byfy gets around to completing its mission > > > > I don't know if that counts "CLL text is no longer valid Lojban", > > but "ignore those" is pretty close. > > "Ignore those" is closer to "Ignore CLL". #lojban users are mostly > xorlo at this point, and my standard advise has become to ignore the > CLL definitions because they'd confuse people, especially because > we're reasonably sure at this point that the current CLL definitions > will be replaced with something, xorlo being the most likely > candidate. > > The bigger problem, pe'i, beyond people stating what is or isn't > right, is the contradiction in usage. People get pointed to LfB, then > come to #lojban where everyone is using {lo} more than {le}, and get > really confused. Being able to change LfB to use xorlo would fix this, > but xorlo isn't official yet. It's a problem. > To add to this, I'll drop in my own portion of the logs: 07:38 < zengaus> Anyway, how am I supposed to learn this language if there is no content? 07:38 < timonator> uh, do you dislike lojbnan for beginners? 07:38 < zengaus> That is out of date as well. 07:38 < cizra> What is out of date there? IIRC only xorlo. 07:38 < timonator> oh my 07:38 < cizra> And that's unofficial. 07:39 < timonator> what about the dot side? (which also isnt official= 07:39 < zengaus> See, I don't even know what that is, 07:39 < cizra> So, the official Lojban is all right. If you can learn that, addi ng dot side and xorlo is _trivially_ easy. 07:39 < zengaus> What's the dot slide? 07:39 < zengaus> side 07:40 < zengaus> cizra, so you intentionally learn the wrong grammer only to hav e to correct it later. 07:40 < cizra> using dots around names 07:40 < zengaus> That's exactly what I'm talking about. 07:40 < cizra> zengaus: The difference is minute. 07:40 < cizra> It's not wrong! It's right and the only official grammar. 07:41 < zengaus> cizra, it WILL be wrong in the future. 07:41 < cizra> Yeah, so? I'm telling you, the difference is so little that you d on't have to learn it separately. 07:41 < cizra> Dot side? Use dots on BOTH sides of names, not just end. 07:41 < cizra> That's all. 07:42 < cizra> xorlo? Read about two pages of verbose, high-level, easily-unders tandable text. 07:42 < zengaus> What's the point of the dot side then? 07:42 < bancus> allowing people to use la lai and doi inside names 07:44 < zengaus> Ok, so why isn't that official? 07:44 < bancus> Because it's not in the CLL. 07:44 < zengaus> That's my point... why not? 07:44 < cizra> Because CLL is printed and published already. 07:45 < cizra> Should LLG recall all the books and issue new ones? 07:45 < zengaus> No, just forget the damn book. That's what the internet is for now. 07:45 < bancus> We'd rather issue one big change book at the end, than a hundred little change books. Now, granted, zengaus is kind of an asshole. A few minutes later he ranted about how he will never, ever use a mailing list and that they're for old people. Never mind that he's only two years younger than me, and older than many lojbanists on the mailing list. However, the fact that he's kind of an asshole allows him to be less polite in discussing his problems with learning the language. I get the feeling that a lot of people feel much like he does, they just aren't as vocal about it. This stretching-on-forever is hurting the language. Something needs to be done. mu'o mi'e bancus